German vs. Allied Territory?

Hi everyone,

I know that in the past there was discussion about where most of the German claims were brought down - in German held territory or behind allied lines. Can anyone point me to that thread? Also, does anyone have thoughts or research on this topic? I am currently under the impression that claims against the British Empire where mostly in German-held territory, while the French victims, due to their more defensive posture, where mostly brought down in French territory. I would love to hear what you all have to say on this.

regards

[Testerchild]

Hi,

I think you are right in supposing that most German combat victories occurred over their own territory, or east of the lines. This is certainly borne out by around 80% of British Empire combat casualties having occurred over German territory. A good source on this is Henshaw's The Sky Their Battlefield in which the writer has listed ALL British combat casualties by date and included such essential details as where, when and how. My own research into 20 Squadron also backs this theory, with only a small number of their combat casualties (as distinct from accidents) occuring over allied teritory.

This is not to suggest that the Germans never approached or crossed the lines, but there was a distinct difference in the two sides' policies: with the British policy being the offensive regardless of losses, and the German policy - due to smaller numbers - being mainly defensive with occasional offensives.

One thing I have noticed in my own research is that while many of 20 squadron's victory claims east of the lines (and also those of most British units) do not correspond with known German casualties, implying a systematic error in the way the British counted victories, the Germans too experienced difficulties with accuracy when claiming victories over the British side of the line. One example I came across showed three German pilots each being credited with one victory, and a fourth pilot with two, all against 20 Squadron's FE2d's on 24th April 1917, when 20 Squadron actually lost only two FE's that day, and a third was forced to land on the British side of the lines without injury to the crew or major damage to the aircraft.

My own opinion is that such claiming errors occurred over enemy territory simply because the speed and confusion of an air fight resulted in pilots and observers forming opinions (such as: 'he was bound to crash', 'he was hopelessly out of control', 'he went down in flames') based on fleeting impressions rather than proven facts. That their commanders chose to accept these opinions as facts was a Command problem, rather than an honesty problem with the pilots - both British and German. The German claims were generally much more accurate than the British ones simply because most of the fighting took place over their own territory so they could locate and count the wrecks. The British could not do the same.

As to the French: in 'The Red Air Fighter' MvR himself states that the British policy was more offensive or aggressive than that of the French. But again, not being an expert on the French Air Service I can only surmise that this (if true) was also due to Command instructions rather than a question of individual bravery: the French proved their bravery a million times over throughout the war, and some of the finest aces were French.

Sorry I can't point you to the previous threads - although there have been several on this and similar subjects - and apologies if I've been a bit long winded here. But hope it's of help.

Bob

Hi Bob,

I thank you very much for your in depth analysis. It seems that you have done your homework on the subject. I appreciate your candid remarks about the validity of air claims, both British and German. Your figures regarding the percentage of German claims in their own territory (over British aircraft) aligns well with the substantiated British losses vs. German claims. Being that the French fought a decidedly less offensive air campaign, the Germans were forced to fight over French-held territory on a larger scale, so I assume that this would be the reason for the larger error in German claims vs. French losses.
BTW, with your extensive knowledge on 20 Squadron, why not write a book on the unit? It seems to be an often over-looked unit, but was very successful during the war.

Thanks again for your help,

Darren

[Testerchild]

Hullo again,

Glad if my thoughts have been of help. Re your suggestion of a book about 20 Squadron: my maternal grandfather, an air gunner, and his pilot were killed in action flying with 20 squadron in September 1917, and since visiting their graves in France a few years ago I've been working on that very thing. Having to do a full time job as well doesn't help, but it's coming to fruition and will hopefully be ready in a year to eighteen months. Only a few loose ends to tie up, and a final re-write....

Cheers,

Bob

That's great news about the book. While there have been countless books on the more glamorous scout units, very little has been written on the recon/close air support side of the war (although 20 Squadron racked up an impressive victory tally in it's own right ). Your book will be a welcomed addition to the WWI literary field. Be sure to advertise on the 'drome when it's complete!

regards,

Darren

[Rick]

Originally Posted by wingedwarrior

Your book will be a welcomed addition to the WWI literary field. Be sure to advertise on the 'drome when it's complete!

I second that!! R.

[Testerchild]

Thanks Chaps,

Roger, Wilco!

Bob