French squadrons on the Italian Front 1917-18

I was wondering .... Can anyone perhaps recommend me any good book which deal with the operations of French squadrons in Italy 1917-18? I would also survive with any published memoires or diaries of any French airman from Italy 1917-18.

lp,

Klemen

[DTB]

Hello,

The french had sent some air units in the italian front.

- A navy squadron of flying boats in Venice, withdrawed in mid-1917
- A Nieuport fighter squadron, N92I / N392 / N561, during all war.
- After Caporetto, two more fighter squadrons for a few months : Spa 69 and N 82
- And some artillery spotters units.

You can order the number 39 of french magazine "Aéro Journal" were there is an article about escadrille de Venise.
http://www.aerostories.org/~aerobibl...id_article=643

About published memories, one of the pilots of escadrille de Venise, Frédéric Loiseau, wrote in 1939 his memories of war under the pseudonym of "Fred de la Sauge"'. You can order a copy in the french national bibliothèque.

http://www.bnf.fr

Use the search engine "Opaline plus"', with the words "Fred de la Sauge".

His memories are fascinating ! Lots of stories of girls, parties, mondanités... For exemple, he writes how they had to find a pretty girl for the Prince of Wales, visiting Venice, in case his royal highness would like to have some nocturnal compagny... These pilots in Venice were the most lucky pilots of all WW1, fighting war in luxury hotels, with restaurant, opera/theatre and girls every night. And, sometimes, fighting austrian aviation...

"At war, like in a lottery, you can find good numbers".

Regards,
DTB

The french had sent some air units in the italian front.

Thank you for your fast reply, DTB. Your list of French air units on the Italian Front 1915-1918 has been very helpful. I presume you don't know if any of these air units had its own unit history written like for example it was done for the MF-33, do you?

You can order the number 39 of french magazine "Aéro Journal" were there is an article about escadrille de Venise.

Thank you. What about other French fighter squadrons? Where could I find anything their skirmishes with the Austrian aviation in 1917-18?

About published memories, one of the pilots of escadrille de Venise, Frédéric Loiseau, wrote in 1939 his memories of war under the pseudonym of "Fred de la Sauge"'. You can order a copy in the french national bibliothèque.

THANKS!!!!!!! If you find any other French memoires or accounts (air or ground) from "Front italien" please let me know.

... royal highness would like to have some nocturnal compagny... These pilots in Venice were the most lucky pilots of all WW1, fighting war in luxury hotels, with restaurant, opera/theatre and girls every night...

Sadly that is just another proof that royalties are totally useless on this world.

And, sometimes, fighting austrian aviation...

Does Mr. Loiseau mention in his memoires anything about his engagements with the Austrians?

lp,

Klemen

[DTB]

Hi again,

I'm sure these units have not written their history. At those time, each french squadron had only the obligation to make a carnet de comptabilité de campagne (account war book). Journal de marche was an obligation only during WW2.

About SPA 69 and N 82, most of their air activity is unknown and will remain unknown. I could only find a report of Spa 69 making a ground attack of an austrian airbase. And a casuality list. That's all.

And, yes I forgot : a photo of Spa 69 and N 82 pilots making a promenade in the luxury car of escadrille de Venise ! They were invited by N 561 pilots in Venice in their hotel, called "Villa paradiso".

Don't be so severe about royal families, they are not totally useless : they are usefull for untertainment ! N 561 received the visit of king of Italy, Belgium, and Montenegro too.

Loiseau scored only italian girls, no austrian planes, but talks about one air engagement just before Caporetto. He tried to attack enemy bombers but his gun jammed, and he was himself attacked by german fighters, and escaped them in extremis with his gun jammed.

His life after the war is fascinating (he crossed the Sahara in an Bugatti car during the 1920's), but we are leaving aviation history.

Regards,
DTB

I'm sure these units have not written their history. At those time, each french squadron had only the obligation to make a carnet de comptabilité de campagne (account war book). Journal de marche was an obligation only during WW2.

Thank you, DTB. What type of information does "a carnet de comptabilité de campagne (account war book)" contain? Does it also include a list of all confirmed French air victories on the Italian Front?

About SPA 69 and N 82, most of their air activity is unknown and will remain unknown.

How come?

I could only find a report of Spa 69 making a ground attack of an austrian airbase. And a casuality list. That's all.

This sounds great. Do you have this report and a casualty list?

And, yes I forgot : a photo of Spa 69 and N 82 pilots making a promenade in the luxury car of escadrille de Venise ! They were invited by N 561 pilots in Venice in their hotel, called "Villa paradiso".

Did these French pilots, chaps of yours, actually see any combat?

Don't be so severe about royal families, they are not totally useless :

Yes, they are.

Loiseau scored only italian girls, no austrian planes, but talks about one air engagement just before Caporetto. He tried to attack enemy bombers but his gun jammed, and he was himself attacked by german fighters, and escaped them in extremis with his gun jammed.

This Louseau chap really thought he's another Arsene Lupin, eh? You mention he describes in his book an engagement with German fighters just before Caporetto. When exactly did this squadron arrive in Italy?? I did know that some British and French artillery was sent to Italy to help the Italians during the 10th and 11th Isonzo Battles, but I have never heard of any air units being sent before November 1917! In any case I would like to know more about this engagement of his with German fighters. Do you have perhaps any extra info (date and place for example)?

His life after the war is fascinating (he crossed the Sahara in an Bugatti car during the 1920's), but we are leaving aviation history.

Fascinating details. Thanks for passing them to me.

lp,

Klemen

[vb136]

Klemen,

The Carnet de comptabilité lists the personnel assigned to a specific unit, both aircrew and groundcrew. At best, full name of each individual is given, as well as when joined, from which unit and when leaving the escadrille and to which unit/killed/missing etc. The Carnet does NOT contain any information on victories scored, that information must be found via other sources.
The quality of the information in the carnets can vary.
Please also note that some of these carnets does not exist anymore, 1916 being, in my opinion a very bad year, with many carnets missing from the French archives.

Best regards

[vb136]

Another note: The US journal Over The Front published an article, by Jon Guttman, on the markings of escadrille 561 some years ago. I can not remember the specific issue, though.
The article did include a number of interesting photographs.

Best regards,

The Carnet de comptabilité lists the personnel assigned to a specific unit, both aircrew and groundcrew. At best, full name of each individual is given, as well as when joined, from which unit and when leaving the escadrille and to which unit/killed/missing etc. The Carnet does NOT contain any information on victories scored, that information must be found via other sources.

Nah, that's a good one, hehe... I would desperately need such carnets with FULL names of officers for some of the chasseurs battalions and infantry regiments in World War I, who fought on the Italian Front for whichI can't find any lists to get the full names of the officers. But OK... Where can a man find the list of French aerial victories over Italy 1917-18? Which documents would, by your humble opinion, contain such information?

Please also note that some of these carnets does not exist anymore, 1916 being, in my opinion a very bad year, with many carnets missing from the French archives.

Eventually I would be interested in carnets for those French air units that have fought in Italy for late November 1917 to October 1918. Not 1916.

Another note: The US journal Over The Front published an article, by Jon Guttman, on the markings of escadrille 561 some years ago. I can not remember the specific issue, though.

Thanks for this, but generally I am not much interested in markings. I'm more into the operations, airmen and aerial victories of this squadron scored over Italian Front in 1917-18, particularly during the Asiago Plateau and the Piave battles in June 1917 and October 1918.

lp,

Klemen