Looking for pics of the Siemens machine guns fitted to ...

Ross_Moorhouse · 22 November 2005, 01:06 PM

Looking for pics of the Siemens machine guns fitted to either Mai's Albatros D.Va or Rumey's D.Va. I believe this was when they were with Jasta 5.

Dave_Watts · 23 November 2005, 10:35 PM

Hi Ross,

When you state Siemens machine guns, what exactly are you talking about?

I know there were some experimental Siemens machine guns, but I didn't know any made it on to field aircraft. When one speaks of German fighter aircraft guns they are normally referring to Spandau Arsenal LMG Maxims. I know there must be some source for people saying Siemens made in quantity fighter aircraft guns, but I've never seen proof of it. Just wondering where your source for it is from?

Thanks for the insight into this old time dilemma.

Best,
Dave W.

karrart · 24 November 2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave_Watts

Hi Ross,

When you state Siemens machine guns, what exactly are you talking about?

I know there were some experimental Siemens machine guns, but I didn't know any made it on to field aircraft. When one speaks of German fighter aircraft guns they are normally referring to Spandau Arsenal LMG Maxims. I know there must be some source for people saying Siemens made in quantity fighter aircraft guns, but I've never seen proof of it. Just wondering where your source for it is from?

Thanks for the insight into this old time dilemma.

Best,
Dave W.

It's those so-called motor guns with some incredible rate of fire, which I can't remember at the moment. There's photos of them mounted in a couple of airplanes from Jasta5 and also Jasta 58. They're almost "Star Wars" in appearance, from what little I've been able to see in the few dim photos that have been published. The mystery and rarity is what makes 'em fascinating!
Robert Karr
www.karrart.com

Gregvan · 24 November 2005, 11:45 AM

Hi All,

In his book on German Aircraft Armament, Harry Woodman says simply that: "In 1917 the Germans were seeking a gun with a greater rate of fire but a new type of machine gun takes time to develop...The Siemens Works had started to experiment with a powered machine gun (that is, a machine gun in the true sense of the term, where the gun is fired mechanically and does not rely on blowback and recoil) but did not proceed beyond this stage."

Yet, it certainly seems that Siemens DID produce some working examples which were tested in the field. There is the famous photo of

Josef Mai, Siemens Engineer Kaendler and

Fritz Rumey, posing with their two Albatros D.Va's armed with the Siemens "Motor" M.G.'s. According to the caption in C & C Volume 18 No. 3, pp. 280-281, "The two aircraft were experimentally fitted with Siemens machine guns capable of firing 1400 shots per minute. The flyers were cautioned to keep the aircraft within German lines during combat in order to prevent them from falliing into Allied hands. Several Pfalz D.XII aircraft were similarly equipped." There is another photo showing Engineer Kaendler with Jasta 5 guys in their Kasino, and the caption says he was checking out the installation of the experimental machine guns. I presume that historian Bill Puglisi provided these captions, and he was very well-informed and meticulous in his research.

In addition, the Ferko archives contain a photo of a Jasta 58 Albatros D.Va (D.5675/17) also equipped with the Siemens guns.Sadly, none of the photos provide many clear details of the guns. However, Pete Grosz told me he has seen reports from pilots in the Siemens Archives, telling about their successes using the "motor" machine guns. Yes, I've tried to get Pete to publish these reports but he's been too busy before now.Hopefully, someday more info and illustrations may emerge from the Siemens archives.

Greg VanWyngarden

Gregvan · 24 November 2005, 11:48 AM

Oops, I'd better correct myself. Of course, Harry Woodman's superb book is not just on German Aircraft armament, but that of all nations in WWI. The title is "Early Aircraft Armament, The Aeroplane and the Gun up to 1918." I have the Smithsonian Press edition published in 1989.

Greg

Ross_Moorhouse · 24 November 2005, 02:40 PM

Thank you guys for your replies both here on the Drome and via email. They have all been very imformative and have set me on the right path with this now.

Ross_Moorhouse · 24 November 2005, 08:53 PM

GregVan has given me permission to post these here...

Rumeys DVa with the Siemens guns installed.

Detail shot of Mai's plane with these guns.

I take it that the tapering tube seen extending down from the gun breach area is for directing spent cartridges away?

Ross_Moorhouse · 24 November 2005, 08:57 PM

Mai's plane with the Siemens guns installed.

Jasta 58 Albatros D.Va 5675/17 with the Siemens guns installed.

TonyWilliams · 27 November 2005, 12:22 AM

No pics I'm afraid, but the following extract from Flying Guns – World War 1: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1914-32 provides some background information:

It occurred to some designers that if the firing of machine guns needed to be physically linked to the propeller, it would be a logical progression, and in principle much simpler, to use engine power to drive the gun. The rate of fire would be directly linked to the engine and thereby the propeller speed, with none of the firing irregularities which accompanied synchronised systems. The most advanced design was developed in Austro-Hungary; the Gebauer, a twin-barrelled weapon which was successfully tested (on Aviatik D.I, D.II and D.III) and ordered in quantity, but appears to have been just too late to be used in the First World War, although a D.I armed with a Gebauer is claimed to have seen service with the Hungarian Red Airborne Corps postwar. The Gebauer weighed 21 kg and could fire at up to 1,600 rpm. After the war, the Allies destroyed the manufacturing facility but Ferencz Gebauer re-created and developed his design which went on to see service in two versions with the Hungarian Air Force in the Second World War.

Engine-driven designs were also produced by several German companies, namely Autogen, Fokker, Siemens-Schuckert and Wollerman; the Infantry Construction Bureau and the Aircraft Machine Gun Detachment at Döberitz also became involved. Fokker's design (which may actually have been by Lübbe) was also continued and patented postwar but not taken further. Another Fokker development was a 12-barrel rotary gun, also externally powered, of which no details except a photograph survive. The Siemens-Schuckert weapon was sufficiently advanced in development to be installed in a Fokker D.VII, although the results of this experiment are not known.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Roadhog · 1 December 2005, 10:24 AM

Dear Ross and gang, How many of these Siemen machine guns were in stalled on operational aircraft? Were they only used on Albatros type aircraft? When did they reach the front?

Thanks. BTW Ross, Bunny has seduced me to the dark side of the Force and I have been using him on all my civilian e-mails. VR, Roadhog "Memento mori."

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