Richthofen's monument in Poland

Immo_Frese · 29 November 2005, 09:50 AM

peteroz,

great photos, very interesting! Thanks for posting them.

Immo

GrzeM · 29 November 2005, 10:45 AM

Hi!
I don't want to be too bitter, but I want to corrct some things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FliegerJG1

Just wanted to add a note so people aren't confused....Manfred was born in the town of Wroclaw but at that time, it was known as "Breslau." The old Prussian names in Silesia have changed.

Prussian names in Silesia aren't that old. Prussians, who conquered Silesia from Habsburg Empire ruled it for only 200 years. Name of that town has Slavic roots and has nothing common with Prussia, even in it's German variant. Originally Wroclaw was Polish (990-1335) , then Czech (till 1526), then Austrian untill Prussians conquered it in 1740.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wroc%C5%82aw

Quote:

Originally Posted by FliegerJG1

I had heard that this monument was desecrated which is sad but understandable considering the events of WW2 and later. Thankfully, the old cadet school at Wahlstatt, formerly a Benedictine monastery (now Legnickie Pole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legnickie_Pole) has survived the years.

I thikn that the monument was damaged during the war or shortly after, by Russians. Present grafitti shouldn;t be considered as descaralisation, as there is no original plaque. I think that present inscription of Richthoffen's name and his dates of life are painted on the wall, and the guys with spray cans weren't aware what are they overspraying. Anyway, graffiti words are not related with the MvR or even Germany, but rahter common rude words and Polish Police. Also it is necessary to remember, that it was monument, not grave of Richthoffen.
BTW, the real desacralisation was making the Cadett School in Ancient Catholic Monastery. Protestant Prussians were specialists in such activities.

I don't think that Polish govt. or local self-govt will finance the restoration of the monument (we still are short with cash for highways and hospitals), but I'm also more than sure that there would be no serious opposition (maybe except some few extremists) if some German (or other) group of enthusiasts would like to restore the monument. Manfred von Richthoffen isn't Polish "anti-hero" - opposite to Wolfram von Richthoffen, who was officer of Nazi Luftwaffe.
Cheers!
G.

GrzeM · 29 November 2005, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soderbaum

Hi
As far I am aware of, it still today exist a huge amount of historical aviation material in Breslau in Silesia.
The Polish have refused to give the material "back to" Germans institutions despite several proposals. The material have also been secret until today (at least for German researchers)...

Very interesting! What exactly do you mean? Documents? artifacts?
While I don't understand keeping it in secret (maybe it was under control of Soviet units stationing in Silesia?) I definitely agree that these documents should remain in Poland. Germans intentionally destroyed so many Polish archives (including State Archives in Warsaw, which were intentionally burned by Verbrennungskommando flametrhowers) and historical collections, that we have right to keep those what Germans left.
Anyway, Polish law doesn't allow to keep the historical documents in secret, and we are normal, European Union country with normal European Union-compatible legislations.
Or do you mix it with former German Airplane collection which is presently in Krakow Museum?
Cheers!
G.

Soderbaum · 29 November 2005, 11:58 AM

Hi GrzeM

The material I refer to is historic aviation material (not artifacts) regarding German flyers who "lived" in Silesia (also other parts of former Germany which today is in Poland)...

I actually have difficulties to understand the Polish standpoint to refuse "sending this" material to Germany where it belongs...

If it had been done at least part of the material had been open for research..

I still hope that the Polish will change their standpoints and hopefully in the future it will be available for coming generations..l

Gunnar

GrzeM · 29 November 2005, 02:03 PM

If these are documents, and are in possesion of Polish state or other public institution, forbiding the access for the researchers is illegal according to the Polish law.
So I suspect that or the existence of these materials, or the problems with access must be rather rumor than fact.
But... everything is possible.

I wonder what are these materials, as really very few things survived the war and Soviet occupation, also German archives were mostly evacuated to the West.

"Where these things belong" is at least disputable. Why not in the places where these things were originally stored and are parts of the history? Why to take everything to Germany? Of course I hope that your main argument is that Poles doesn't want to allow to study it - that's why, but as I wrote, it is illegal in Poland, so I rather don't belive it.

If you write something more specific, maybe I'll be able to help, I know several professional historians (also in Army) and many professional journalists.

BTW, in France and in Britain it is also not very easy to get informations about military personel, even from WWI! My French friend wanted to get files of his Granduncle, observer in Bre. 39. It was not allowed, as these file were top secret because of the officer's involvment in intelligence service.
Cheers!
G.

Soderbaum · 29 November 2005, 10:47 PM

hm...

Regarding who has the right to this kind of documents, I completely disagree with You...."a people has the right to their own history"...!
Arguments like that the Germans destroyed our archive and therefore we can refuse their right to keep their own archives does in my meaning belong to the stoneage...
The Polish could have behaved properly and kept information about "people with Polish background"

And regarding the access to the material. Whatever you say about the law this is information which I have gotten from German contacts. Lastly about 5 Years ago. I trust the information I have received from them...!
They have also spoken about the problem in general terms, which I interpret that this it is/was the situation for those studying military history. I dont knew situation for those researchers who for example is studying botanics etc..

You also probably knew that there are 1000 of ways to prevent researchers access to archive material...

Even in situation where the material actually is stored within an official archive it is easy to prevent people access to 99 % of the documents..

Gunnar

GrzeM · 30 November 2005, 05:10 AM

Gunnar!
Again, could you specify what documents and where they are?

I wrote, that I know several professional historians in Poland (also in the Army Historical Bureau), - not botanists! - and I can probably solve the problem.

All that thing looks strange and unbeliveable. Sure, for you Poland may appear as some strange kingdom in the middle of Africa where everything is possible. But I live and work in this country and I know the reality.

Please, do not accuse my country in public for unfair behaviour if you don't want to prove it.

G.

rammjaeger · 30 November 2005, 11:43 AM

>>Where these things belong is at least disputable.<<
>>I definitely agree that these documents should remain in Poland.<<

No, hothead!

According to International Laws there is NOTHING debatable!
"The so-called "Beutekunst" as well as "Beute-Dokumente" are German property!

I am not wondering about the Russian behaviour in this matter but a citizen from a country with allegedly Europe-compatible standards should at least know that.

Nevertheless under consideration of the above mentioned facts concerning Polish losses I could imagine solutions which provide some usevalue for both sides.

VBR
Rammjaeger

GrzeM · 30 November 2005, 12:02 PM

Rammjaeger!
You are right. I behaved as a hot-head.

I shouldn't judge what should happend with things I in fact don't know what they are.

"The so-called "Beutekunst" as well as "Beute-Dokumente" are German property!"

Could you explain this? As you apparently know what Gunnar is talking about.
I'm extremely eager to finally know what interesting aviation related materials my compatriots have.

BTW, what about German stuff possesed by Americans, Canadians, Britons or Australians? Are these archives and airplanes "German property" too?

Cheers!
G.

stephen · 30 November 2005, 12:20 PM

It would be wonderful if the documents in question were returned to their original owners. I have to agree with Gunnar... it would help researchers tremendously, and much of what I need may well be held there. And it just seems right.

However, the notion that governments which wage needless wars and waste millions of lives will suddenly come to their senses and act rationally over a few pieces of paper is absurd. Ultimately, the problem is not that the wrong government is holding the material; the problem is that any government is holding the material. So long as that problem continues, all we little people can do is wait and hope.