Richthofen's monument in Poland

[Rick]

Originally Posted by GrzeM

BTW, what about German stuff possesed by Americans, Canadians, Britons or Australians? Are these archives and airplanes "German property" too?

I can only speak for the American's, and only to documents, but (I THINK) all of the German material we hold are copies, not originals. The exception would be the so-called Tambach files, the complete records of the German naval forces both WWI and WWII, and those our government returned to Germany (after micro-filming them, or course ). Perhaps Frank Olynyk may wish to clarify. R.

[frontflieger]

Hi,

what documents are we searching for? For me I would say: documents who belong to the Richthofen-brothers... I am sure that Manfred collected not just the trophies of his fights but his letters and those of his family, and other (more or less) important people. What about his "Militärpass" - his military document showing his salery...

What about the Loewenhardt documents... or... the local aviator-assocciation of (former) Breslau... Lots of little pieces which - combinded - are of great value for us...

What are you forumist eager to find and read?

Thorsten

[ww1 ace]

You know what I would like to do to the people that did the graphiti? I would like to put them in a Sopwith Camel and put me in a DR.I. Then they won't be doing it anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GrzeM]

Originally Posted by ww1 ace

You know what I would like to do to the people that did the graphiti? I would like to put them in a Sopwith Camel and put me in a DR.I. Then they won't be doing it anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, they are not worthy even to be strafed in the middle of the field. Why waste Camel for them?

G.

[GrzeM]

I want to explain why I'm extremely cautious when someone starts talking that Poland should "return" something to Germany.

During the WWII Poland, victim of the German agression, lost 6 million of citizens and unbeliveable amount of property, real estate, infrastructure and all you can imagine, including museal and archival exponates.
Only in Warsaw the losses (not including the art and archives, only the normal, material things like houses, machines, cars and other property) were estimated by Warsaw President's Special Comission for 45 billions 300 millions of USD (in nowadays prices).
My family lost during the war everything (except lives) two times: first in 1939, when almost immediately after capturing Warsaw Germans created "German Only Zone" ("Nur Fuer Deutsche") on the Szucha Alley were family of my paternal Grandpa lived. They had only 15 minutes to leave, and there was no replacement apartament. Family of German SS or Gestapo officer who "inherited" my Grandpa's apartament took not only furniture and dishes, but even supply of jams and juices prepared for the Winter by great-grandma.
Another time they lost everything in 1944 during Uprising, their house on Madalinskiego street was for six weeks on the frontline similar to those in Stalingrad. Only broken brass plate was found in the rubble after the war.
All we have now from before war is the Great-Grandpa's prayer book, as the brass plate was lost somewhere.
My grandfather also didn't manage to live long enough to get money from German govt for almost two years of slave labour for Germany in Stutthoff Concentration Camp, as he died in 1992, and Germans started to pay about 1995 (about 50 years after the war), after strong international pressure.

We do not want our apartament, furniture and jams back from Germans. It is history. I also do not blame contemporary Germans for sins of their fathers and grandfathers. But if Germans want something back, OK, we can talk about it, but we should start from our losses, as not we, but Germans were agressors in that war.

Amen.

Grzegorz Mazurowski
Warsaw, Poland

[GrzeM]

Originally Posted by GrzeM

My grandfather also didn't manage to live long enough to get money from German govt for almost two years of slave labour for Germany in Stutthoff Concentration Camp, as he died in 1992, and Germans started to pay about 1995 (about 50 years after the war), after strong international pressure.

Germans started to pay in 2000, not in 1995. So 55 years after the war.
Sorry, my mistake.
G.

[rammjaeger]

GrzM,

possessions of libraries, archives and museums as well as private historical goods are part of the general “Kulturgut” (cultural goods) and the following is Germany´s position in the matter of the stolen or confiscated Kulturgut:

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/d...kfuehrung_html

This position is based on “Völkerrecht” (International laws) and already covered by the “Haager Landkriegsordnung von 1907”.
You can read that in detail in the following books (Band 152 and 153!) and documentations, especially the book by the Russian jurist Elena Syssoeva:

http://www.buch.de/buch/schlagwort/beutekunst_buch.html

And: Yes, confiscated German Kulturgut is stored in many countries of this world but only Russians and Poles believe they could prevent a solution of the problem based on the principle of „cultural substitution“. That is senseless, because
a) researchers are only hampered in their efforts to do their tasks and
b) these goods will soon be damaged or gone (because of the lacking financial funds in these countries) if no senseful solution can be found.

And a senseful solution is possible as contracts and negotiations with other countries (which did suffer in WWII too) show.

VBR
Rammjaeger

PS: No, I am not Gunnar´s reference source in this matter.

PPS: Sadly, the “contribution” of ww1 ace is only suited to stop any discussion.
I don´t think he is German – otherwise he would know that nearly every WWI monument in Germany becomes smeared by young idiots in the same manner as the Richthofen monument in Poland. This behaviour is NOT specific for Poland.

[GrzeM]

Rammjaeger!

My German is not enough to make me sure of that, but I suppose that the "Beutekunst" refers to the artifacts taken from original places of storage - so can be called "looted".
(For example from Berlin museum to Moscow).

On the other hand, almost all German things Poland posess was not looted from German hands, but found abandoned on the former German territories given to Poland by Yalta conference (technically by Red Army), against Polish will, as replacement for Eastern territories of Poland lost to Soviet Union.

For example WWI airplanes from Berlin collection which are now in Krakow were found after the war on pre-war(!) Polish territory, near Poznan, where they have been transported by Germans during the war to keep it out of reach of Allied bombings. Ironically, that collection included several Polish airplanes looted by Germans in Poland in 1939 (P.11c, PWS 26), and several non-German planes captured or looted during WWI (Camel, DH9, Grigorovich).
Similar was the story of the Prussian Library, which was found after the war in Poland hidden in some mountain mines and is now preserved in Krakow University.

"The international issues presented above come within the remit of the Office of Government Plenipotentiary for Polish Cultural Heritage Abroad. The Office has been documenting Poland’s war losses and conducting searches for various items in Russia, in former Soviet republics, as well as combing Czech and Slovak archives. On the other hand, art objects lost during the war which have now resurfaced in Germany, the United States or Israel come within the competence of the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The Ministry also handles negotiations on the cultural assets which before 1939 belonged to German institutions, and which are now in Polish collections. In the latter case the argument centres on the ownership of what is known as the Prussian Library, a rich collection of manuscripts, incunabula, old prints and unique editions of 19th and 20th century works. Before World War II these were owned by Berlin’s Prussian Library. After 1945 the Prussian Library collections resurfaced in an area which had become Polish, and currently belong to the Jagiellonian University of Kraków. The German side is of the opinion that the collection in question being a national cultural asset of the highest order should be returned to Berlin. The Polish Government, however, works on the assumption, that Poland has never been fully compensated for the immensity of damage and destruction inflicted by the war on the Polish heritage, and is therefore in no hurry to hand the Prussian Library back

The heritage-related Polish-Ukrainian negotiations are as difficult. This time round it is the Polish side that lays claim to the precious Lvov Library which prior to 1939 was the property of the Polish Foundation set up by the aristocratic Ossoliƒski family. It will be remembered in this connection that in 1993 Ukraine received from Poland, courtesy of President Walesa, six volumes of papers from the archive of Taras Shevchenko, Ukraine’s greatest poet. Ukraine is yet to return the compliment."
(from here:http://home.btclick.com/polishembass...8_lecture.html)

Cheers!
G.

[GrzeM]

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

And: Yes, confiscated German Kulturgut is stored in many countries of this world but only Russians and Poles believe they could prevent a solution of the problem based on the principle of „cultural substitution“.

Things which are stored in Poland were never "confiscated". They were found abandoned by retreating Germans on the territory which was given to Poland by Yalta conference.

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

a) researchers are only hampered in their efforts to do their tasks

Access to Polish archives is similar to those in the other European countries. The only potential limitations are caused by German demands. If the situation of disputed archives were clear, there would be no limitations.

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

b) these goods will soon be damaged or gone (because of the lacking financial funds in these countries) if no senseful solution can be found.

Maybe Germans should stop demanding the return and start to co-finance the conservation, if they care so much and are not happy with the Polish funding?

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

And a senseful solution is possible as contracts and negotiations with other countries (which did suffer in WWII too) show.

Though Polish suffering in the WWII can't be compared with any other country (as a nation of course Jews suffered more), I think that negotiations are very good solution. But one must be aware, what side was agressor, and what side was victim of the agression, and also be aware that the Polish losses are uncomparably greater than German ones.
G.

[Marco_Sommerau]

Originally Posted by GrzeM

Rammjaeger!

The Polish Government, however, works on the assumption, that Poland has never been fully compensated for the immensity of damage and destruction inflicted by the war on the Polish heritage, and is therefore in no hurry to hand the Prussian Library backG.

To keep saying today that German patrimony as archives or goods should be kept in Poland as a revenge for “what they did to us” is an example of political immaturity and unexplainable behaviour towards a friendly country being both members of the European Union. It is beyond me. The Polish blackmail is an European scandal, I hope the European Union will take actions. These items, or more on-topic, or the German aircraft in Krakow were part of a German national museum, and therefore are part of the national patrimony of Germany. As a European I only hope that they are returned as soon as possible.

SHAME!!!