Richthofen's monument in Poland

Yes GrzeM. Exactly. Of course I agree with my friend.
It's good that GrzeM say our opinion abut this topic becouse I havn't got enaugh time.

Pozdrawiam
Peteroz

[GrzeM]

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

These items, or more on-topic, or the German aircraft in Krakow were part of a German national museum, and therefore are part of the national patrimony of Germany. As a European I only hope that they are returned as soon as possible.

Why double standards?
What about things which were parts of Polish museums and were robbed or destroyed by German invaders? Poles did not robbed German museums.

Poland is not responsible for German decisions of hiding their aircraft collection in Poland. These airplanes were not robbed, were even not found in the former German territory which later became Polish. They were found on the pre-war Polish territory.
There are also British and Russian WWI airplanes in that collection. Why they should be given to Germany?

Should we also give Germans back their barbed wires from the concentration camps they created in Poland? That is for sure German, not Polish property. Maybe Germany should have profits from tickets sold in Auschwitz Museum? Technically, Germans, not Poles were the investors!

On the other hand, Germans are responsible for destruction of two pre-war Polish aircraft collections. Former German planes may be seen in Krakow museum by everyone. Polish planes may no longer be seen by anyone.
This is the real shame.

We do not look for revenge, we even do not look for decent compensation.
We are only asking for a bit of decency.

Thief who broke into your house, robbed it, murdered your wife and finally burned the whole building shouldn't ask for his wallet he dropped during the robbery. At least before he pay for what he has done.

G.

[Roadhog]

Gentlemen, You're bucking human nature and hundreds of years of history here. I am an American southerner. We lost our Civil War in 1865 and for the most part, we still hate the Yankee invaders who burned our culture to the ground.

My great grandfather's family had been in Maryland for nearly 200 years but after the war, he was told that he risked his life returning to Baltimore. So with the clothes on his back, he walked to Texas.

So it was in Poland and Germany in 1945; the men who performed these violations and war crimes are for the most part rotting in their graves. For those who still remain, the Bible says let the dead bury the dead.

We need to sort out how we are going to live and work with other in the future. We don't have to forget and we don't have to love each other; we just need to make this work.

Eventually time and the grim reaper will heal the wounds although it may take 200 years. VR, Roadhog "Memento mori."


(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
signature to help him gain world domination.

[vb136]

Peteroz,

The Holiday Inn at Wielople street.

[vb136]

Sorry, should read Wielopole street

Peteroz,

The Holiday Inn at Wielople street.

Thank You, I know this place

What about things which were parts of Polish museums and were robbed or destroyed by German invaders? Poles did not robbed German museums.

Until today we haven't got many of arts which was robbed by German soldiers.

We do not look for revenge, we even do not look for decent compensation.

Yes, I agree with this opinion.

Peteroz

[rammjaeger]

GrzeM,

your claim about the “abondened” areas and left goods is simply wrong. A big number of Germans left before the incoming Russians 1945 but MANY stayed. They HAD to leave later because they were forced to do so by Polish and Soviet soldiers. Therefore they had no chance to save anything than the pure life (and many, many could even not do that). So your play with words becomes a bad joke. It was not necessary for the Polish to “confiscate” anything! They simply did what today is called “ethnical cleaning” (but only if no Germans are hit by this method) – they did it with support and agreement of the other victors.
For some reasons I can even understand the Polish emotions and motifs for this act but nevertheless your claim is ridiculous and wrong.

As well I realized you are kidding me: Why should Germany “co-finance” (with at least 100% or what?) anything if these goods are claimed to be and stay for ever 100% possession of Poland? Every co-financing requires common agreements and especially juristic reliability but one of your earlier remarks seems to provide the background idea: Let Germany pay until doomsday but all the other crimes and wars in history are not worth any mention or even compensation ... despite I don´t know any bigger or middle power without at least one “corps (= major crime or Völkermord)” in its history. Is there any other nation paying too beside Germany? We are not the world´s milking cow – if we pay then we want to see a deadline!

And: Yes, 55 years is a shameful long time but you should know that no such thing like “Germany” did exist before 1990! Even worse, nobody was interested to make a peace treaty with “both Germany´s” – and that is the natural base for a final agreement about compensations! To my knowledge the “BRD” was not willing to pay money to “Communists in Poland” but I have never heard anything about compensation demands of “Volkspolen” against the DDR. As well there is no word about the real compensation in form of German territorium which did enlarge Poland considerably in the West! We are not responsible for your loss of land in the East! Is that the reason for your obvious bias or even hate against Russia (displayed in earlier threads)?

VBR
Rammjaeger

[Marco_Sommerau]

Come on Grzem, we know Poland suffered a lot of the war (as many other countries did), but you should know that all that happened more than half a century ago: the criminal nazi goverment was beaten an removed from power, judged and their leaders jailed or executed. Germany paid the full price for their mistakes; their country mutilated, destroyed, ruined, invaded and divided. Post war Germany officially apologised and started paying huge indemnifications of all kinds. It solves very little, but what else could they do? The reparations paid by Germany since the end of the war (and they still pay today) are astronomic. But a fact is, that no matter what they teach you in Polish schools today, in 1945 Silesia was German territory (and had been for a couple of centuries). And you Poles aren’t that impeccable either: after WW2 the Silesian Germans (who were living there for generations) suffered persecution, abuses, many were killed, and ALL were finally expulsed from their land. This is called ethnic cleaning and is crime against the humanity. I wonder how much is the average pension Poland pays to the millions of innocent victims… Because justice should work both ways, no?

I can not understand why we keep digging that rubbish. The Polish blackmail with German patrimony is totally unacceptable between modern democracies within the European Union.

Peteroz: thanks for the very interesting photos.

[franzkait]

and we do not realy count all the cars , the Polish did steal the last 15 years in Germany

[GrzeM]

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

your claim about the “abondened” areas and left goods is simply wrong. A big number of Germans left before the incoming Russians 1945 but MANY stayed. They HAD to leave later because they were forced to do so by Polish and Soviet soldiers.

You are wrong. You are apparently talking about the lands which belonged to Germany before 1939. But I wrote about the lands which belonged before 1939 to Poland. THERE were airplanes from Berlin hidden (close to Poznan in Wielkopolska).

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

They simply did what today is called “ethnical cleaning” (but only if no Germans are hit by this method) – they did it with support and agreement of the other victors.

Poles never agreed for Yalta, and were victims of ethnic cleansing on the Eastern Polish territories which were taken by Stalin. Poland was not side of the post war agreements, but victim of these agreements. Despite Poland was apparently on the winners side, in fact lost the war - Yalta confirmed Soviet invasion from 17th September 1939 and made Poland Soviet colony for 50 years.

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

As well I realized you are kidding me: Why should Germany “co-finance” (with at least 100% or what?) anything if these goods are claimed to be and stay for ever 100% possession of Poland?

Because Germany cares (I think so) for their history. Poland is financing restoration of Polish relics in the former Polish lands of nowadays Ukraine and Belarus. Because we care for our national heritage.

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

And: Yes, 55 years is a shameful long time but you should know that no such thing like “Germany” did exist before 1990! Even worse, nobody was interested to make a peace treaty with “both Germany´s” – and that is the natural base for a final agreement about compensations! To my knowledge the “BRD” was not willing to pay money to “Communists in Poland”

My Grandfather was not communist, but victim of German occupation, slave laborer in Stutthoff KZ Lager. Many German companies (Siemens, Junkers etc which are active in business even today) enjoyed the slave labour of Polish people. But decided to pay for that only after 55 years, and under strong pressure (I think that if American Jews weren't involved nothing would be payed).

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

As well there is no word about the real compensation in form of German territorium which did enlarge Poland considerably in the West! We are not responsible for your loss of land in the East!

And we are not responsible for your loss in the East. That was decision of Big Three (Stalin, Rosevelt and Churchill).

Please, don't think I'm anti-German. I really don't need any compensations. But we also would never accept German demands of "returning" anything, as we have not stolen anything.
G.