Richthofen's monument in Poland

[GrzeM]

Originally Posted by franzkait

and we do not realy count all the cars , the Polish did steal the last 15 years in Germany

You are mixing something.
G.

[GrzeM]

Marco!

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

Come on Grzem, we know Poland suffered a lot of the war (as many other countries did), but you should know that all that happened more than half a century ago

It happens today: Germans are demanding "returning" of several things (including British and Russian WWI airplanes which Nazis abandoned in Poland, pre-war Polish territory), and "Preussische Treue" organisation even demands from Poland compensations for German property left in the territory of nowadays Poland. This is not history, but present reality.
It is Polish proposition: let it be history. Let's not ask for compensations, reparations etc.

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

Germany paid the full price for their mistakes; their country mutilated, destroyed, ruined, invaded and divided. Post war Germany officially apologised and started paying huge indemnifications of all kinds. It solves very little, but what else could they do? The reparations paid by Germany since the end of the war (and they still pay today) are astronomic.

Germany didn't pay any reparations to Poland. And even we do not want reparations. But, German friends, please stop talking about Polish reparations for Germany!

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

But a fact is, that no matter what they teach you in Polish schools today, in 1945 Silesia was German territory (and had been for a couple of centuries).

In 1945 even Norway and Denmark were German territory.
In 1945 parts of Silesia were German not for couple of centuries, but for six years (Polish Silesia) or for seven years (Czech Silesia).
Only some (though greater) parts of Silesia ever belonged to Germany (except WWII period).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

And you Poles aren’t that impeccable either: after WW2 the Silesian Germans (who were living there for generations) suffered persecution, abuses, many were killed, and ALL were finally expulsed from their land. This is called ethnic cleaning and is crime against the humanity. I wonder how much is the average pension Poland pays to the millions of innocent victims… Because justice should work both ways, no?

Yes, it was ethnic cleansing, but it was decided and conducted against Polish will, according to Yalta conference of Big Three, and similar ethnic cleansing happened to Poles who lived on the Polish territories taken by Stalin Soviet Russia. Between 1939 and 1989 Poland was not independent (except Emigration Government in London) and all the ethnic cleansing done by "Polish" People Army and Security Service was organised and led by Soviet Russia, not independent Poland. At the same time Polish patriots suffered similar if not more bitter fate as Germans, being murdered and imprisoned by Stalinist "Polish" Security.

If you want to widen your knowledge about Poland from independent, unbiased source, I suggest you reading Norman Davies "God's Playground" (whole Polish history) and "Uprising '44" (WWII) and Lynn's and Olson's "The Question of Honor" (about Polish aviators, but with political and historical background). Please, read at least "Question of Honor" or "Uprising '44" before you start to be "expert" in Polish history. These are really good books.
http://www.questionofhonor.com/

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

The Polish blackmail with German patrimony is totally unacceptable between modern democracies within the European Union.

I don't understand what "blackmail" you mean.
Regards
G.

[Marco_Sommerau]

Grzem, you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. You say that you didn’t receive any compensation from Germany? What about Silesia itself, a big and rich region with huge coal reserves? It is not enough?
It is time to Poland to abandon the institutional victimism and chauvinistic hyper-nationalism and start admitting your mistakes as well. You are not entitled “Europe’s favourite victim”: an example: in Spain we had also our “Germans”; the French. When the Napoleonic troops occupied Spain committed terrible crimes, raping, killing looting were systematic methods of war and terror. Almost 200 years later the barbaric French acts are still in Spanish population’s collective memory, like the Arapiles killing where woman children and babies were savagely murdered. The Spanish patrimony suffered a lot or robbery, looting and deliberate destruction. Now what? Should we ask compensations? Should we consider the French as a dubious people of genocidal instincts? We have to move on, nobody is immaculately clean, we Spaniards did the same in our colonies around the world. This is what European history is all about. Any civilisation tried to overrun the precedent.

The frontiers of nations are flexible; the cultural legacy is not. Poland has not the right to retain German archives or cultural goods. About eventual Polish patrimony lost during the war, so it is, unfortunately. Lost. But if you know of any piece of Polish patrimony irregularly retained in Germany (or elsewhere) you have the right to claim it back.

Regards,

M.

[Marco_Sommerau]

sorry, posted twice.

[GrzeM]

Marco!
I again suggest reading Norman Davies and Lynn&Olson, as you surely need more informations about Polish history. You should know before you judge.

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

Grzem, you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. You say that you didn’t receive any compensation from Germany? What about Silesia itself, a big and rich region with huge coal reserves? It is not enough?

Former German territories which Poland got on the West were compensation not for wartime losses, but for the Eastern territories taken by Soviet Russia in 1945 and for nothing else.

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

in Spain we had also our “Germans”; the French. When the Napoleonic troops occupied Spain committed terrible crimes, raping, killing looting were systematic methods of war and terror.

Again, please read Norman Davies. These things are uncomparable.
Center of Warsaw in 1945 looked like this:


(Church was left because Germans needed the watchtower for MGs, as they were preparing to defend the ruins from advancing Red Army).


Remaining building in the middle is German prison.

Did Madrid looked similar after Napoleonic retreat? Do you still think these things are comparable?

But, please, understand, we do not want to go into this again. We do not need reparations. We want to forget. But, as you see, Germans are coming back to that times, demanding "returns".
G.
(I changed two photograps, as I previously wasn't able to find the ones I wanted. Most moving for me is that aerial photo resembling Western Front photos.)

[Marco_Sommerau]

What is this supposed to be as an argument? Why don't you pass us here a trailer of the Schindler's list film to make it more dramatic? The point is not if you suffered a lot or not (we know you did), the point is if you will admit one day that these photos are the past and not a license to blackmail Germany forever!

PS: Madrid not, but the city of Teruel for example was (at the scale of XIX century, of course). Unfortunately the photography wasn't invented yet...

[rammjaeger]

GrzeM,

I will not answer to your last posting because I feel it is impropriate and could result in even more furious discussions without any positive results.

I am simply thinking you are trying to defend Polish interests but I have also the right to defend our interests.

My aunts parents were killed by Polish men in 1945 but I know Germany started the war. Therefore I do not complain or feel hate.

As well I think this discussion is not serving the original purpose of the thread but I am grateful for the interesting pictures of your compatriot.

VBR
Hannes

Originally Posted by Marco_Sommerau

Peteroz: thanks for the very interesting photos.

It's no problem for me. As I say I have got one or two more foto but I must find them

Peteroz

[GrzeM]

Hannes!

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

GrzeM,
I will not answer to your last posting because I feel it is impropriate and could result in even more furious discussions without any positive results.

I hope that you understand that my last post was not answer to you but to Marco, who apparenlty isn't fully aware of the Polish-German history and present situation.

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

My aunts parents were killed by Polish men in 1945 but I know Germany started the war. Therefore I do not complain or feel hate.

I belive that their murderers are criminals and should be punished, if they are still alive. Their behaviour is great shame for the whole Poland, doesn't matter who started the war.

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

As well I think this discussion is not serving the original purpose of the thread but I am grateful for the interesting pictures of your compatriot.

I agree with you. It's a pity that we entered that path and I agree with all my heart for returning to talking about Richthoffen.

Best Regards!
Grzegorz

One more foto of Richthofen's house. Now from "jastaboelcke.de".


Peteroz