Aviators Watches

[Dreamer]

Hello All;

* * * * *Looking for information on the types and use of watches by pilots on all sides during WW I.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 8)Dreamer

[ONEALM]

Dreamer -

Not exactly my area, but....

The photo below is of a watch worn by 2/Lt. Philip Kissam, 213th Aero Squadron. Trained at Foggia and later Tours and Issodun. It's a standard civilian Longines (still runs...), but he has made an aluminum backing which prevents the stem from accidentally popping out and changing the time. Kissam told me he wore this watch at Foggia, Issoun and the 213th.

You can see it's rotated now to free the stem. The little tabs around the rim hold it to the watch and the one at the 2:30 o'clock position covers the stem.
Not exactly issue equipment, but effective.

Keep at it,
Mike

[Barrett]

On a related subject:
Sergei Sikorsky has a marvelous presentation on pioneer airmen, including how Alberto Santos-Dumont invented the wrist watch. It was too troublesome to retrieve a pocket watch while droning about in his dirigible (no fuel gauge) so he went to Cartier's (where else) and had them attach a strap to a watch. Voila! (Or the Brazilian equivalent) a fad was born. Soon a wrist watch was sported by the young boulevardiers of Gay Paree (back before the language was corrupted and gay meant happy.)

[GWRCo]

8)Hi,
just seen yr message, if u go to ebay.co.uk, and look under the time pieces section there, you'll normally find a guy on it selling ww1 period wristwatches and fob watches. I bought one off him a while back in full working order! Cost me £70.00!! I've already got the chrome guard (trenchguard as its known) to get fitted over it. He normally has a vast selection, and has some right beauties in it. Some he labels as issue RFC pilots watches, but i suspect these were privately purchased. A ww1 fobwatch i have has the service details on the back of it complete with the crows foot.

You could try the cross and cockade society for help, as well as the RAF museum, and/or Imperial War museum. Another is to try the internet under military watches.
Hope this helps a wee bit!

Gwrco.

[wulffo]

Hello,
concerning watches there were to my knowledge no issued wrist watches in the flying services. a number of private purchases of them is known (borgel, longines etc.) also a large leather strap that allowed a pocket watch (frequently a ladies watch) to be worn on the wrist was a common private purchase and some of them came with little metal protection cages for the glas. (Albert Balls watch is displayed in the Nottingham Museum)

Austrian air service: Most planes appear to have had instrument panel clocks, generally housed in a chromed case mostly produced by Watzl (a Vienna watchmaker) with enameled dials and luminous numbering. the outer rectangular case is labeled as property of the K&K airforce and numbered. The white dial of the watch itself names the plane production company. i have seen aviatik, albatros flugwerke, phoenix and oesterreichisch ungarische flugwerke budapest, but presume that there are also others

RFC RAF generally used a so called mark 5 with non luminous black dial pocket watch (30 hours or 8 day types are known). these were set in the instrument panel with a screwed on outer case backed by horse hair and were produced by amongst others omega and zenith. they are (RFC types) distinguishable by a large A and an arrow Mark on the back of the actual watch.

French air service. the watches I have seen are all marked as airforce property. generally there were a variety of instrument panel clocks (nice ones in the spad) but i know very little here. CAN anyone help????

German watches are generally of a lower quality than the english equivalents usually instrument panel mounted and marked property of the airforce (Eigentum der Fliegertruppen) on the white dial plus a winged propeller on the back with the letters FL or FLZ (ps i doubt that FLZ has anything to do with zepelins). There are also a few paper dials of late war production arround with a stamp in purple ink labeling them as 'Eigentum der Fliegertruppen'...very rare!

I am just setting up a webpage on

www.oliverwulff.com

(will soon be milwatch.com) and there are already pictures of the above there if you want to have a look.

[Jim]

That's a fanciful but very untrue story about Santos Dumont "inventing" the wristwatch. The earliest known example of a wristwatch dates to the late 1500s and belonged to Queen Elizabeth I. They were mostly items for the very wealthy until the second half of the 1800s when they became popular for women to wear as a kind of jewelry. Men started wearing them in earnest during the Boer War (1899 - 1902) when they became very popular among officers. Finally, during WW I and the 1920s they became very widely worn by both men and women and the pocket watch began its long decline to where it is today mostly a curiosity or collectable.

To add a bit to Wulffo's excellent summary - I personally know of 4 varieties of French aircraft clock that were mounted either on the instrument panel or in the center of the control wheel. I have 3 different kinds and have seen the 4th. There may be more for all I know. Inside they are powered by pocket watch movements. I have also seen a regular WW I pocket watch with the French air service markings.

I know of four varieties of instrument panel clocks used by the U.S. (there may be more). Three were made by Waltham and inside are powered by pocket watch movements. The main differences among these three are the inscriptions on the dials. I have ones marked ASSC, AS and USN. The fourth kind which I do not own is made by Chelsea and marked ASSC.

I have an Italian clock that I am unsure whether it is WW I, though it may very well be. It has the R. Aeronautica markings.

[cameldriver]

I have never seen a wristwatch marked with the US Air Service name BUT I have seen some marked Signal Corps, of which the Air Service was part. I have to assume that these were government issue, but if they were actually provided to Air Service personnel, I don't know.

[Jim]

Regarding WW I wristwatches, I've never heard of any officially issued to pilots. I have seen two private purchase trench watch style American wristwatches where the guys had some jeweler engrave their names and "ASSC" on the back. I have my doubts that the engraving was done at the time, though of course anything is possible. More likely it was done after the war as a rememberance, or even possibly very recently as a deception.

I've also seen a great many WW I trench watches being advertised by sellers as being pilot's watches and pointing out the large lugs that "must mean there was a very big strap attached that would have gone all the way around a heavy flying coat sleeve" or "the dial is very large and so must have been used by pilots" or "the number 12 is red while all the other numbers are black and that was the secret code for it being a pilot's watch or an officer's watch" and other such strange claims. I believe this is fanciful or hopeful selling at best, or perhaps just ignorance, but more likely deception to get a higher price for an ordinary trench watch. I'm sure many pilots had personally purchased wristwatches and pocket watches but there is no evidence that there would be any special brand or style they would have bought at the jewelers as opposed to what any other soldier would have bought for themselves.

[leo]

I have seen a photo of Kurt Wintgens wearing a wrist watch. It looked like a real turnip. I wonder what make it might have been?

[Jim]

It looked like a real turnip

One style of wrist watch at the time was to have a clamshell type case on a strap where the case had a glass window on one side. These cases were large enough to hold a small size pocket watch inside it. Perhaps it is a version of one of these?