Australian Flying Corps

[Tailspin]

I read once that King George V wanted to raise regiments of Canadian and Australian Guards after the war, to celebrate the good service provided by the Canadian and Australian forces during the war. The major stumbling block that prevented this was that the Australian soldiers were paid better than their British comrades and nobody, therefore, volunteered to join the Guards!
So, when the AFC was organized, were all Australian members of the RFC transferred to it, or was it voluntary? Did any Australians stay with their British units? I know that some Americans stayed with the RAF or Armee de l'Air units rather than join US forces. But, after Gallipoli, a lot of Australians had an axe to grind with the British leadership, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were happier to serve under their own flag.
Hopefully some of our Australian contributors can set me strait on this.

Tom

Hey Tom
Probably easier than writting it all here , is to give you this link to the history of the A.F.C.
http://www.australianflyingcorps.org/mkiii/
As you will see , the organisation was in existance for some time before the A.F.C Squadrons arrived at the Western Front , but ofcourse because of the small number of places up for grabs in this arm led many to join the R.F.C./R.A.F.-R.N.A.S.
I can see your point about Aussies in the A.I.F. being disgruntled with the British Command , but in general I think it's true that most people that served in the Air Services did not have the experiences such as when the Aussies were sent against the Hindenburg Line at Bullecourt to become dissatisfied with command ....and I think that many Aussies in the British air services felt an amount of " belonging " there . It's easier to understand if you remember that most A.I.F. members had some tie to Britain by a parent or grandparent that was British or from a feeling of Britain as the " motherland ".
Hope the link is of some interest ....
BlackSeptember.

[NeilE]

Tom;

The AFC Squadrons were formed separately as an independent force. As far as I know leading Australian pilots in the RFC/RNAS/RAF were not asked to join or transfered to the AFC.

Most of those who joined the RFC/RNAS such as Dallas,Little, and Hay, did so because there was no opportunity to join the AFC, mainly because of the high numbers of recruits at the time.

It should be remembered that Australia's leading aces both flew with the RNAS/RAF, not the AFC.

Who knows what would have happened if Little, Dallas, 'Spike' Howell, and some of the others from the RFC?RNAS were transfered to the AFC. One hell of a mess for the Germans maybe!

On a slightly darker note, it has been said that even though Dallas and Little were the higher scorers, neither received much recognition back in Australia. Neither survived the war, and many of the earlier accounts focused on the doings of the AFC's Cobby et al. It also suited the nationalistic agenda of the Australian Govts of the time to focus on the exploits of their 'homegrown' flyers. I believe that this has been the cause of some bitterness amongst the relatives of Robert Little (not sure about Dallas' family), and even today they are little known.

All the Best

Neil

[john_g]

Tailspin

You said, "I know that some Americans stayed with the RAF or Armee de l'Air units rather than join US forces. But, after Gallipoli, a lot of Australians had an axe to grind with the British leadership, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were happier to serve under their own flag"

I know of at least two members of the Aussie Imperial Force who went to Gallipoli, John Maxwell Warnock who was w.i.a. and Frederick Corbet Gore who became ill and subsequently joined the RFC. In Warnock's case he was returned to Australia and discharged, only to learn to fly in NZ and return to England. Check out www.66squadron.co.uk/index.html

John

I was just paging through the Aussie aces to see if I could add to the list that fought in the Dardenelles then joined the R.F.C.
I found four names ( no doubt there are more ) these are
Alexander Pentland 23 victory's ( one of Mr Franks's favorites if I am correct )
Raymond Brownell 12 V's
Cecil Richards 12 V's
Herbert Larkin 11 V's
There is a fifth that comes close to being included , and that is Frank Alberry , who was a Tasmanian that went to England to join the British Army before the war , he deserted to return home . On the outbreak of war he joined the A.I.F. and served with distinction in the Dardenelles and then France , where he lost a leg in July 1916 and being awarded the D.C.M. . On his recovery he personally petitioned Geo V to be allowed to transfer to the R.F.C. , but after training he was actually transfered to No2 A.F.C. Sdrn flying SE5A's . He was awarded 7 victory's before hostility's ceased .
Thanks to Above The Trenches for that Bio .
I wonder what happened about Alberry's desertion charge ??...
On another note ...I'm extremely sorry to the family of Robert Little if his deeds were not properly recognised after the war . But I hope that today such things are different , and that we Aussies feel the same about all our servicemen ...no matter what flag they fought under ....Is it O.K. that we claim Lanoe Hawker ....seeing his dad was a South Ozzie ???....just joking , I don't wish to be lynched !!.
BlackSeptember

[NeilE]

Hi All;

Another who served in Gallipoli and then went to the RFC was Capt. Cecil 'Spike' Howell. Howell was a member of 16th Battalion and fought on Gallipoli. After the end of the campaign he went to France as a member of 46th Battalion, where he served as a sniper on the Somme.

He was accepted into the RFC in November 1916. In October 1917, he was posted to 45 Sqn, flying the redoubtable Sopwith Camel. His Flight Leader at 45 Sqn was the author Norman MacMillan.

45 Sqn were sent to fight on the Italian front in mid-November 1917. Over the period of January-July 1918, Spike Howell downed 19 aircraft, including destroying four fighters in one dogfight on the 12th July, 1918. Spike was recalled to England in August and spent the rest of the war at the flying school at Upavon. For his exploits, he was awarded the Military Cross, DFC and the DSO.

He died in 1919, drowning off Corfu in a crash while participating in the 1919 England-Australia Air Race.

In relation to Little and Dallas. I think there is an aerodrome in Queensland named after Dallas but there is no commemoration for Little anywhere. Despite his reputation at the time as the best and most aggressive of the Sopwith Triplane pilots, his exploits have been overlooked in favour of the Canadian Black Flight.

Such is history I guess.

All the Best

Neil E

In relation to Little and Dallas. I think there is an aerodrome in Queensland named after Dallas but there is no commemoration for Little anywhere. Despite his reputation at the time as the best and *most aggressive of the Sopwith Triplane pilots, his exploits have been overlooked in favour of the Canadian Black Flight.

Such is history I guess.

All the Best

Neil E

G'day Neil,

Little and Dallas have streets named after them in the ACT along with several other "aces", also Little has a building named after him on the ADFA campus.

Andrew.

[NeilE]

G'day Neil,

Little and Dallas have streets named after them in the ACT along with several other "aces", also Little has a building named after him on the ADFA campus.

Andrew.

Gday to You Andrew;

Its good to see that there has been some recognition for a great pilot. Is there anything in Melbourne, his home town?

Also from what I've read Little's family were quite upset due to the lack of recognition. How did Stan Dallas' family feel about that?

All the Best

Neil

G'day Neil,

I don't know if Melbourne has any sort of memorial to Little. I do know his family does not like any reference in articles written on him that relate to his family life.

As for Dallas, I really do not know what his family thought, but knowing Queenslanders, I am sure his efforts were recognised in some manner.

The Museum of Flight at Nowra NSW does recognise both Dallas and Little as well as most of the other Aussie RNAS fliers.

Regards,

Andrew.

[Vin]

Three streets in the Central Business District. Little Collins, Little Bourke and Little Lons.


Vin