Erinnerungsbecher

[rammjaeger]

In some Richthofen threads of the last time some of the posting forumites did feel annoyed by the "morbid" making of "honour goblets" for every victory (until number 60).

I do not share this position because every "normal" digger/landser in the trench wars liked to take souvenirs (also with blood and gore) of crashed airplanes - the army bureaucracy had always to fight with this kind of behaviour during the war.
As well everybody knows one of the main purposes of the life of the old "Ritter" (knights) was to take "Trophäen" (trophys). So it fits to the term "Ritter" - even if modern human beings can not understand this behaviour.

And now to the reason for this thread.
It is false to claim that only MvR did order to make this kind of Becher after victories.

There is a lot of reports and photographs showing that a bigger number of German aviators did do just the same. I remember also an Erinnerungsbecher (= commemorative goblet) by Immelmann (for victory number 8) was recently sold via ebay. I have seen his no.14 too and others of other pilots (e.g. Baldamus and comrades).

So, MvR´s "Erinnerungsbecher" were not so uncommon as some think!

[FliegerJG1]

This is very interesting to know, Rammjaeger. Looking back at the past, there are many social and cultural customs and habits that we are not aware of today. Then when we evaluate things a particular person did without this knowledge, they might look strange or may not make much sense.

A lot of knowledge is needed to place these men in the context of thier culture and times so that we can better appreciate and understand them.

Rammjaeger, thank you for bringing this to our attention!

FliegerJG1

[Claudius]

Hello;

I ran across this thread. It is very close to what I'm working on now. Regarding the earning and awarding of Erinnerungsbechers, I can definitely say from personal documents I have that the Erinnerungsbecher was definitely awarded to those other than just MvR. In fact, you didn't even have to be a Jasta pilot or an officier to get one. The documents I own belonged to pilot Visefeldwebel W. Grasmeher. And he was in a FA(A) unit in Macedonia!

Still trying to get more details. But those are the facts.

Neat stuff....at least to me an others that like doc groups, medals and militaria related to the flieger troops.

-Claudius

[redalb2253]

We still take trophies today it's easier for grunts to do because they are closer to death than any other even if it's a button off a jacket or a helmet with a round hole in it ,it's to the victor goes the spoils.

[Simba]

Easier to carry and less smelly than the head of your defeated enemy too.

[Frank_Olynyk]

Claudius,
Grasmeher's claim appears in the Nachrichtenblatt der Luftstreitkraefte, Vol. 1, issue 38, crediting it to him on Oct 5, 1917, "South of the Prespa See", as an enemy aircraft (no type given) while a member of fla(a) 246. Does the document you have give his first name? Or any indication of the type of aircraft he was flying? Neither of which appear in the Nachrichtenblatt.

Many thanks for any help.

Frank.

[Claudius]

Hello Frank Olynyk;

Please forgive my tardiness in responding. I had forgotten about this thread and didn't check it again. My fault.

Thank you for that bit of information and source! In answer to your question, the source is a page from his Militarpass and it states a "single-seater, Nieport". It doesn't mention where, or the nationality of the plane or the pilot for that matter. But you were able to provide the location. That's great!

As for what type of airplane Grasmeher was flying, I don't have anything from Grasmeher that mentions a specific plane type. I'm hoping that it can be discerned by the types of two-seater aircraft that FA(A) 246 had at that time.

If there are any other sources I should look at, I would be appreciate learning where I should be looking.

-Claudius

[Frank_Olynyk]

Claudius,

Do you have Grasmeher's first name? All you supplied in your original post was "W".

With regard to the type of aircraft flown by FA(A) 246 that is most difficult to determine. Little effort was spent between the wars to gather data from the non-Jasta units. And most of the records were destroyed during WW2. In general the FA(A) units usually had a variety of aircraft on hand; two of this, three of that. Especially in the Balkans, where they received aircraft that weren't considered good enough for the Western Front. So unless one has pictures showing aircraft from the unit during the time in question it is probably impossible to determine what the unit had on hand, much less what aircraft a specific pilot flew. With luck there might exist aircraft inventories.

Enjoy!

Frank.

The people who complain about things like the silver cups are totally ignorant of the period and its customs. To start with, they were not souvenirs of a victory. He took those, and so did most the other combatants of the period and of all wars before and since. But his cups were something else entirely. They were commemorative silver cups made far from the battlefield, and they were very typical of the custom of the time. My wife collects old silver. I well know that in the late Victorian era, the period leading into WW1, silver for every occasion was the norm, and commemorative silver was an absolute necessity! That's how it is that the well set Victorian table had to have not just a meat fork, salad fork, tablespoon, teaspoon, and table knife, but also a fish fork, an asparagus fork, a strawberry fork (when in season), desert spoons, soup spoons, fruit spoons, sherbert spoons, condiment spoons, butter knife, fruit knife (we are just talking place settings here, not serving pieces used by everyone for serving from the main platters or bowls--that would be a whole new list!), salt shaker, cinnamon shaker, sugar shaker, pepper shaker, coffee pot, tea pot, water pot, napkin rings, center pieces, condiment set, pickle casters and tongs, etc., etc., etc. They were crazy for silver! No wonder the tables were so long! It wasn't for the people, it was for the place settings! Right along with that was the social necessity to commemorate EVERY mildly significant event with a silver presentation piece. Sometimes it seems that 80% the antique urns, pitchers, platters, goblets, tea and coffee services, we see have an inscription about someone retiring from the local sewage service, or won a county cricket tournament, had a cow that won the highland livestock show, and every other non-event you can imagine. And it isn't just a plain silver change tray.....the sewer service retiree would end up with a fantastic work of art that sells for $1000.00 today. That was the custom of the time. Surviving an aerial engagement alone would have qualified as a significant event in my book! Actually prevailing, now that would really qualify for a cup! Truth is, MvR's cups are very modest compared to the norms of the prewar period. The cricketeer who won the annual Inverness Match in 1910 did much, MUCH better!

There is more to history than just looking at numbers, or even airplanes. It has to be taken in the overall context of the values and mores of the period, and these cups are a good example of why you can't apply modern (rather twisted, and often Polyannaish) values or perspectives to the men and women of the past.

Matt

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by Frank_Olynyk

Claudius,

Do you have Grasmeher's first name? All you supplied in your original post was "W".

With regard to the type of aircraft flown by FA(A) 246 that is most difficult to determine. Little effort was spent between the wars to gather data from the non-Jasta units. And most of the records were destroyed during WW2. In general the FA(A) units usually had a variety of aircraft on hand; two of this, three of that. Especially in the Balkans, where they received aircraft that weren't considered good enough for the Western Front. So unless one has pictures showing aircraft from the unit during the time in question it is probably impossible to determine what the unit had on hand, much less what aircraft a specific pilot flew. With luck there might exist aircraft inventories.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Hello Frank:

The "W" stands for Wilhelm. I understand what you mean about trying to identify the aircraft. I have nothing that indicates what he was flying. I was hoping to find other research that would indicate what planes were being used by FAA 246. And even any photos of FAA 246 would also be helpful in this regard.

In the same way, I'm trying to identify the pilot/nationality of his victory on Oct 5th, 1917. All I know for sure is that it was identified (by the Germans) as a single-seater Nieport. Details about the plane would probably need to come the Allied side, (British, French, Serbian, ?)

Frank, do you have a copy of the NB, Vol 1, Issue 38? I would like to get a scan of the page referring to Wilhelm Grasmeher.

In the NB, do they also list causalities? I ask, because on 1/31/18 Grasmeher was injured in an air combat, but landed safely and was admitted to a Bulgarian Field Hospital.

Thanks for looking.

-Claudius.