1 April 1915

rammjaeger · 11 September 2006, 09:47 AM

I am a bit confused about the entries for this day in

TFASWC:

S/Lt Garros MS 26 Albatros B POW Westkapelle

No remark about the identity of the captured German crew.

Sgt Navarre & a. MS 12
Lt Robert b. MS 12 Aviatik POW Merrval 0625

a. Gefr August Spacholz & Ltn Grosskopf, FlAbt 40, KIAs Oudecapelle.
b. Ltn. Engelhorn & Obltn. Wittenberg.

Looks strange to me.
Did the crew Navarre/Robert claim two victories that day?
Is it an alternative loss listing for the victory of Navarre/Robert?
Did either a. or b. belong to Garros and the publisher goofed?

VBR
Rammjaeger

gilles · 11 September 2006, 01:47 PM

Hello

It's a typo.

a. Gefr August Spacholz & Ltn Grosskopf, FlAbt 40, KIAs Oudecapelle.
these are the victims of Garros in Belgium. There were definitely KIAs, Garros wrote that he saw the corpses as the Albatros fell on the french side of the frontline.

b. Ltn. Engelhorn & Obltn. Wittenberg
were captured by Robert and Navarre on the Champagne front. There is no doubt about it because this victory was much publicized (third "confirmed" french victory i.e. plane falling inside french lines)

Gilles

rammjaeger · 12 September 2006, 12:17 AM

Thanks Gilles,

but I have still doubts about the correct identification.

Look at "La Guerre Aérienne" 1917, page 263. IMHO the dead officer on the Albatros is Grosskopf but the magazin attributes the victory to Navarre.

Or did the French "La Guerre Aérienne" make a misidentification of the photo?

gilles · 12 September 2006, 03:09 PM

The caption under the picture says that the plane was shot down by Navarre but no date is given.

This plane (albatros B ?) seems to have crash landed very hard rather than fallen from high. The one captured by Navarre was an Aviatik and it landed almost intact, pilot wounded at a leg and observer OK.

If we agree that Spacholz and Grosskopf were the ones killed by Garros in Belgium, then the picture of the wreck does not fit with Garros description.
It was his first kill and in several letters he wrote to friend and family he did not hide the horror he felt about it. He wrote that the german plane did fell in flames during 25 seconds and the (few but sufficient) details he gave about the crew bodies does not look like the "guerre aerienne" picture.

Gilles

vb136 · 13 September 2006, 01:44 AM

Further evidence of the fact that Garros brought down Spacholz and Grosskopf, is the fact that they are noted as having fallen at Oudekapelle, in Belgium. At the time, Garros' unit MS 26 was based in Flanders.

rammjaeger · 13 September 2006, 07:10 AM

O.K. I see now

1) S/Lt Garros (MS 26) shot down an Albatros B in flames near Oudecapelle in Belgium. Crew Spacholz/Grosskopf KIA.

2) Sgt Navarre & Lt Robert (MS 12) did bring down an Aviatik near Merrval in France. Crew POW. Pilot WIA on the leg.

Thanks again.

Now I start to wonder who is pictured on this photograph in "La Guerre Aérienne". There are at least two other photographs of the same downed Albatros B and the dead aviator existing. One is not the common kind of ugly French cadavre photography but rather impressive and dignified. This photo indicates the Flieger was hit in the chest.
I wonder if it is possible to attribute the photograph to Navarre at all? His early victories seem not to fit.

Rick · 13 September 2006, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilles

b. Ltn. Engelhorn & Obltn. Wittenberg
were captured by Robert and Navarre on the Champagne front. There is no doubt about it because this victory was much publicized (third "confirmed" french victory i.e. plane falling inside french lines)

What unit were these fellows from ?? R.

gilles · 13 September 2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

Now I start to wonder who is pictured on this photograph in "La Guerre Aérienne". There are at least two other photographs of the same downed Albatros B and the dead aviator existing. One is not the common kind of ugly French cadavre photography but rather impressive and dignified. This photo indicates the Flieger was hit in the chest.
I wonder if it is possible to attribute the photograph to Navarre at all? His early victories seem not to fit.

It can't be any 1915 victories, but maybe an early 1916 one?

(there is one crew killed 26/02/16 inside french lines in Verdun area). After all, the photo was published in a march 1917 magazine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

What unit were these fellows from ?? R.

I don't know!
According to René Chambe in "au temps des carabines" (and he was there), the crews captured by MS12 on april 1st (Spacholz+Grosskopf), april 2nd (von Keussler+Brobuggle) and april 28th came all from the same unit based at Chatelet-sur-retourne (between Rethel and Reims).
Chambe did not find the names of the third crew but from another french source it would be Lt Ledebur and Hauptmann Sander. In

FASWC, von Lederur would belong to FlAbt 13.

Gilles

Rick · 13 September 2006, 04:09 PM

Gilles, it almost computes. Gefr. August Spacholz (P) and Ltn. Walter Grosskopf (O) were from FFA 40 and were KIA at Oudecappelle. So they were not members of FFA 13. However, Oblt. Fritz Bolbrügge (O) and Uffz. Otto von Keussler (P) were indeed from FFA 13. As for the crew of Ltn. Wilhelm Frhr. von Ledebur (P) and Hptm. Ernst Sander (O), I have conflicting data. One source notes they were with BAO and were captured in Russia. The other source says they were from FFA 13 and taken POW at Epernay.

So the crew of Ltn.d.R. Otto Wittenberg (O) and Uffz. Fritz Engelhorn (P) could easily be from FFA 13. Thanks, R.

rammjaeger · 14 September 2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

It can't be any 1915 victories, but maybe an early 1916 one? (there is one crew killed 26/02/16 inside french lines in Verdun area). After all, the photo was published in a march 1917 magazine.

Gilles, the first photograph of these 3 pictures of the same event were published by L´ Illustration already in spring 1915. Also unarmed Albatros B were hard to find in 1916.

I will try to find, scan and post one of the other pictures here.