Commercial use of insignia

Logan · 15 November 2006, 12:39 PM

I just purchased some equipment that will let me print designs onto t-shirts and other cloth items to sell commercially here in the US. I would like to print some shirts with the insignia of some US and French squadrons. A few company logos such as Fokker would be nice too, but I bet there are more licensing issues to deal with when compared to squadron insignia.

This thread helped a bit: When is history intellectual property?

I know books and games are sold with the insignia, but I doubt any of the publishers pay licensing fees. I'm not an expert on copyright or intellectual property, but I need to make sure what I do isn't infringement.

Philippe JOURDAN · 15 November 2006, 03:26 PM

For French Air Force, insignias are "property" of SHAA,

SHAA
Chateau de Vincennes
94300 VINCENNES
France

I think that if you write them, and if your project is for very small qty or for some WW1 enthusiasts, SHAA don't ask you royalties....
But think to send them someone free at each issue....

buzz1941 · 15 November 2006, 05:33 PM

I think

Eddie Rickenbacker got scolded for attempting to use the hat in the ring insignia for commercial use, or he scolded someone else.

Jim · 16 November 2006, 12:54 PM

Copyright law is complicated and if you have any hopes or intentions of selling more than a couple of t-shirts you need to ask permission of the people who own the information. If you make any money you will need to share it with them, or do whatever makes them happy such as giving them credit or freebies or whatever. You will also need to clear with them your designs so that they will not feel like you are abusing their agreement. For example, the French Air Force will not likely want cash, but if they agree they will likely want to approve your designs in advance to satisfy themselves they are not being used in ways they may consider to be unflattering or disrespectful of their traditions.

The much easier way to go would be to modify any emblems or logos or whatever to the point where they are notably different from the real ones. This then becomes your copyrighted property and no one can use them without making you happy with money or whatever you want.

Laserlloyd · 16 November 2006, 06:16 PM

As far as the Fokker logo's, they are still under ownership of the Fokker Heritage Trust Foundation. I had received permission to use the logos for my website but I would think if you’re going to profit from it, it will be a different story. These logo's are still under copyright by the FTH.

Lloyd...

Pat Daily · 19 November 2006, 08:15 PM

There is a great display of WWI French squadron insignia in the Paris Air Museum. I took a few photos of them.

Pat

StephenLawson · 20 November 2006, 02:39 AM

American unit insignia are not copyrighted but held in ownership by the Federal Government and cannot be owned by private individuals. Unit isnignia from losing nations can never be copyrighted. Private corporations logos are a different story.

Variations are permitted. Case in point the old 94th Aero restauraunts. There are some tee-shirt companies that offer the Storks, kicking mule, hat n the ring and German Raven insignias. Even the slightest variation in the make up allows for a similar image to be used.

ONEALM · 20 November 2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Even the slightest variation in the make up allows for a similar image to be used.

...but the way I understand copyright law in the US - at least as it applied to Art -and this may be the distinction - is that if a work can be recognized by "...any reasonable person..." to have derived from another work, it's copyright infringment.

That statement is what keeps people from simply flipping an image over, or changing the markings on an airplane and re-selling the image as original by the person who copied it. I remember Keith Ferris had this very thing happen with his NASM B-17 painting when an advertising agency used the image - flopped to point the other direction - in an add. Keith called them and said "I'm not in the business of suing people for copyright infringment, but I am in the business of licensing the use of my artwork."

The advertiser and Keith settled on a fair use price and everyone was happy - execept the guy who created the image for the advert. who I understand may have been looking for work shortly thereafter.

It's a fuzzy line at best and you are cutting it very thin when we say "any slight change" will make it useable. What's a "slight change" - different color, flip the image over, larger proportions, smaller ?

As long as we are at it - and this HAS come up in the last two years - can I get in hot water for painting a B-737 with Continental's logon on the side ? Some corporations are pursuing such nonsensical arguments. I believe the model manufacturers were also under some whacky restrictions as well along those lines.

My advice ? Move to Surinam where US copyright law is not enforced....

Keep at it,
Mike

Philippe JOURDAN · 20 November 2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Daily

There is a great display of WWI French squadron insignia in the Paris Air Museum. I took a few photos of them.

Pat

Yes... but the greatest, is at le SHAA, at Chateau de Vincennes, and, it is more close of Paris that the MAE ( Musées de l'Air et de l'Espace ) at le Bouget...
SHAA is at Vincennes, on the undergound line... terminal of line 1.
Very easy to go for pay a visit... with a wonderfull library, with possibility to print photocopies for some cents.... and FREE access...

Simba · 8 December 2006, 03:09 PM

My attitude's use-it-or-lose-it. The Wright brothers lost the plot - and much of their earning potential - when they spent more time defending their patents against infringement than developing their aircraft designs.

Ditto, art designs. If it hasn't seen the light of day for years, the originator of any design that catches the attention of someone prepared to revive its use should be flattered, not litigious.