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Other WWI Aviation Airfields, equipment, tactics, uniforms and all other WWI aviation topics

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Old 15 November 2002, 08:58 AM   #1 (permalink)
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StefenK:
* *You had stated that I was wrong that contton was not used to make Cellulose Nitrate or Cellulose Acetate Dopes. *You are mistaken, cotton lint (linters) are used and I refer you to Collier's Encyclopedia, Volume 5, page 624, section titled Esters. I quote in part.
"Cellulose Nitrate." third line... "when Christian F. Schonbein nitrated cotton with a mixture of nitric acid and sulfuric acid, that a useful nitrocellulose was developed."
Second paragraph.
"For explosives, the most highly nitrated grades of cellulose nitrate (12.5 to 13.5 *percent nitrogen) are used:"

"Cellulose Acetate. P. Schutzenberger, in 1869, first discovered a form of cellulose acetate but it was not until 1905 that the most useful form commonly used today, a "secondary" cellulose acetate, was discovered by George W. Miles. *Commercial production started in England during World War I to meet the need for a fireproof lacquer for airplane wings."
"The production of cellulose acetate involves the following steps. The purified cellulose in the form of cotton linters or chemically treated wood pulp, is shredded, pretreated with acetic acid to activate the cotton for easy esterfication, and esterified with a mixture of acetic anhydride, acetic acid, and a catalyst, generally sulfuric acid.--"
* Cellulose from shredded wood is a secondary source for the production of Cellulose Acetate and apparently not used in the production of Cellulose Nitrate Dope, (which the Germans used) only cotton is mentioned.
* *So Stefen you were incorrect, and I had made a correct statement regarding cotton in dope and explosives.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan-San Abbott
* *
*
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Old 16 November 2002, 11:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Abbott,

I may be wrong, but isn´t that the same Encyclopedia that states that Adolf Hitler´s favorite movie was "King Kong"? I am not sure, but I think I will go and dig out my copy to check.

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Old 18 November 2002, 02:34 AM   #3 (permalink)
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In fact, the popular name for nitrocellulose explosive is "gun cotton." This is what you see being pushed into the breeches of naval guns and howitzers in the form of a cylindrical fabric tube behind the shell. It is also the primary ingredient of smokeless gunpowders and many other explosives.

The story that I've been told is that it was discovered by accident, when Dr. Schonbein used a cotton cloth to mop up some acids he had spilled and then put it into an oven to dry. He soon realized that the combination was a high explosive!
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Old 18 November 2002, 04:11 AM   #4 (permalink)
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“This admiration, sir, is much o' the savour
Of other your new pranks. I do beseech you
To understand my purposes aright:
As you are old and reverend, you should be wise.”
King Lear

I do not have the time or inclination to correct or challenge Mr. Abbott on every dubious, unsupported statement he makes: As becomes clearer on an almost daily basis, this would rival Hercules’ labor of cleaning the Augean stables. *However, as in this case he misstates what I wrote in an earlier thread—a tactic regularly employed by him in his typical program of character assassination of those who disagree with him or, worse, hold his feet to the fire—I am compelled to reply.

For those interested in the original question itself or the secondary matter of the reliability of the “Grand Mr. Dan-San Abbott,” as one Forum member has termed him, the relevant thread (Fokker Streaky Camouflage Fabric) can be found at the following URL, and its earlier pages (a link Mr. Abbott did not have the courtesy to provide):

Fokker Streaky Camouflage Fabric - Duration Test

Specifically, the relevant matter is as follows:

“WWI Aviation / Aircraft / Re: Fokker Streaky Camouflage Fabric - Duration Te on: 26 September 2002, 12:48pm“

Quote:
The whole [point of the printed fabric was to reduce the consumption cellulose (cotton) which was in acute shortage. cotton was needed for the manufacture of gun powder

You frequently adumbrate technical details as if they were the “facts” that you regularly claim to be the bedrock of your research method and that you regularly beat up those who disagree with you for ignoring, but here your bald equation of cellulose with cotton is only a partial fact: Cellulose is the common material of the cell walls of all woody plants. Brief research into the history of cellulose acetate manufacture indicates that, at least currently, one of the primary source materials for this plastic is wood pulp. Further research is required to determine whether this method of deriving cellulose acetate was in use during the period of interest. If it was, then your follow-on arguments lose their force.”

Mr. Abbott’s quote from Collier's Encyclopedia only reinforces my suggestion that there was likely an alternative source for the cellulose required in the production of both gun cotton and cellulose dopes. *The ball therefore remains in his court to support his bald assertion that any wartime shortage of cotton alone served as the impetus for the introduction of printed aircraft fabrics. *On the face of it, such fabrics would not appear to materially reduce the requirements for shrinking and protective dopes themselves, but rather only the pigments used for coloring them—and the labor required in compounding them. * However, given the painted lozenge-type camouflage employed by the A-H air service, such considerations may not have been paramount either. * Let Mr. Abbot, then, quote from the relevant Idflieg directive or the minutes of the Strategic War Materials Board from his extensive research into original Imperial archives, as would behoove an authority of his stature.


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Old 18 November 2002, 11:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Engel:
Not being a devotee of Adolf Hitler, I would not know what his movie preferences might be. You being German, I can understand your interest.
Blue skies,
Dan-San Abbott
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Old 18 November 2002, 11:51 AM   #6 (permalink)
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StefenK:
1. The German manufactures used cellulose nitrate dope. and it was among the many items that Germany was short of, which included brass tin and aluminum among them. *Also oils and dyes were on the shortage list. *
2. Cellulose, (cotton) was in short supply, and it was needed to make explosives.
3. Whatever action that was taken by Austria in regard to the finish /camouflage of their aircraft had nothing to do with Idflieg.
4. Cellulose Acetate is a British dope used on RFC/RAF aircraft. Cellulose Acetate dope was not used during WW1 by the German Aircraft industry.
* * * * * * * * * * * *Dan-San Abbott
* * * * * * * * * * *
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Old 18 November 2002, 06:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Abbott,

Go and do your homework!

Cellulose Nitrate produces a highly flamable surface when dried.

Cellulose Acetate was used in Germany before and during WWI.

Go and study (there are much more sources you should know about!):

Technische Berichte Band III 1918

1. Versuche mit Stoffen zum Bespannen von Tragflächen S.54,

2. Der Stoff auf den Tragflächen, S. 234,

3. Vorschriften für die Untersuchung von Bespannungsstoffen, S. 282.

I will do translations of the entire articles and post them in our website online archive for all to see later...


Baustoffe und Bauteile des Flugzeuges 1918 (was written in 1915)

Lacke:

1. "Emaillit" by Dr. Quittner & Co (that was what is reffered to in the lists of the Fokker Dr.I factory wing drawings - wasn´t that in WW1). This was a Cellulose Acetate!

2. "Cellagol" by Sydowsaue. This was a Cellulose Acetate!



Stop telling people nonsense and quote from a more contemporary source or at least better sources which are related to the topic! Best of all would be of course from your collection of documents you claim to have put together during the last decates. Your posts show us all what you really know. And I thank you for doing it more obvious with any post you place here.

For all others I would also suggest to go and read this thread on dopes and paints:

Aircraft Dopes and their Application

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Old 18 November 2002, 10:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Whoa! Not too much character assassination please.
I think you two should meet over Polygon Wood at 5,000ft...one drum each. Be alone.
 
Old 18 November 2002, 11:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi Neville,

could not resist, but I think Abbott also would think this would be a waste of ammunition *;D

Cheers

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Old 19 November 2002, 03:15 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Mr. Abbott:

Although I have increasingly had reservations about many of the statements you make on the Forum, I had continued to give you, in the spirit of simple courtesy, the benefit of doubt and had chalked up any divergence from verifiable fact as due to ignorance, faulty reasoning, or misguided methodology. *It is disheartening to realize that, actually, you will say anything in support of your own mistaken opinions and the mythology of your infallibility, whether it be another untruth or a vicious slur. *In your slanderous ethnic slur directed at Achim Engels, you have truly sunk to a low point indeed. *You have exposed both the standing of your authority as a researcher and the quality of your personal character to embarrassing scrutiny. *Neither can survive the examination intact. *In the absence of supporting evidence from other, reliable researchers or the historical record, it becomes only logical to view any of your future statements with skepticism as to their veracity, suspicion as to their motivation, or both.

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