German AA Effectiveness at Altitude

[stephen]

A question for the AA experts among us...

What were the high and low extremes at which the typical, black-puff "Archie" could operate?

How high could they effectively reach, and what was the absolute lowest altitude at which their shells could still burst?

Thank you!

[Immo_Frese]

Hello Stephen,

unfortunately I have no data about the lowest altitude german Flak could operate but I can provide some data about the high extremes...

2cm Flak = 1500 m
3,7 cm Maschinenflak = 2400 m
9cm Behelfsflak = 3700 m
7,7 cm Flak L/27 = 4200 m
7,7 cm Flak L/35 = 4800 m
7,62 cm Flak = 5500 m
10 cm Kanone 14 = 5600 m
8 cm Kw-Flak = 6500 m
8,8 cm Kw-Flak = 7000 m
10,5 cm Kw-Flak = 7400 m

This is data for the year 1917.
In most cases german Flak was in trouble to shoot succesfully at enemy aircraft flying higher than 4000 m.

Immo

[SCMc]

I think that it is remarkable that they could get reasonably close to planes that are less than 10 m, flying around 40 m/s, and are 4000 m away, with hand loaded artillery. If I calculate correctly, planes at 4000 m would occupy a visual angle of about 0.1 degree (1/5 the diameter of a full moon).

The first picture shows the silhouette of an Alb. D.V against a full moon. The second one is scaled so that the moon should look about right on a 17 in monitor viewed from 20 in (0.5 m). You can still see the plane, but it is a very small target.



Add to this about 13 s (If I calculated it correctly) for the shell to reach 4000 m. During that time the plane has traveled about half a kilometer. How did they hit anything?

Steve

[stephen]

Thank you , Immo. That helps me differentiate between types of AA rounds and the altitudes they could reach.

Love that pic, too.

Can anyone help me find the lowest altitudes possible? Surely there was some sort of safety limit since the shell had to have a timing fuse? I've heard of them shooting as low as a few hundred meters (referring only to traditional "Archie" batteries).

[rammjaeger]

I intended to upload a drawing with flying curves of different Flak but it does not work because I can not shrink it down to less than 50 k.
Tell me your e-mail address and I will try it on the direct way.

I can only confirm to achieve more than 4000 metres was a problem for all guns before the new 8 cm, 8.8 cm and a very little number of 10.5 Flak came into action.

The new guns performed better and could theoretically get every WWI airplane but the reality was often a bit different. The rate of failures of grenades in high altitude was enormous. Some sources claim up to 80 % of the grenades fired to high altitude failed because of the different air conditions.

As well only 100 000 grenades of 7 to 11 millions Fla-grenades fired had a modern clock work. I really wonder how they could hit anything if we consider their primitive measuring devices. Nevertheless the wastage of grenades per shotdown was sinking year by year. In 1918 the Germans did need a lower number of grenades for a success than in WWII.

The lower limit is a more difficult question I don´t think I have useful data here because it depends on the kind of caliber and used ammunition and the location or position of the Flak.

[Ransom E. Olds]

With the larger guns traversing is a problem at low altitude--they can't be trained fast enough to hit a target at even at WW.I airplane speeds very reliably; for these lower-altitude targets light weapons (37 m/m or smaller, particularly rifle caliber MGs) are more successful. And firing large-caliber AA guns at low angles is a safety problem for those in the vicinity of the gun, witness Charles Lamb's comments the Italian AA had in dealing with the low-flying Swordfish in the 1940 attack on Taranto harbor. Ransom

This is an awesome topic that I actually never gave much thought to before. All the responses have been very educational. Please, enlighten me some more...

regards

Darren

[rammjaeger]

Hi Darren,

are you accidently owning OTF 4/2002?

There you can read a lot more about WWI Flak than I can post here.

VBR

Rammjaeger

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

Hi Darren,

are you accidently owning OTF 4/2002?

There you can read a lot more about WWI Flak than I can post here.

VBR

Rammjaeger

Hi Hannes,

Yes, I do have this volume (I found this out only recently!). I have been reading it since this topic began. Congrats to you and Gunnar for an excellent article about a little known topic.

Regards,

Darren

[tcrean7828]

Hi,

Archie from the Germans was good enough to splash Captain Richard Aveline Maybery, as you most probably know, he was one of the RAF members who took part in the famous Voss shootdown on 23 Sept 1917.

Maybery was Killed in action due to Anti-Aircraft Gun Mounted on a Lorry (Flatbed Truck), 19 Dec 1917 at 1250L. The Victor was Ltn. Thiel of the 108 KFlakbattr. After scoring his 21st victory over Bourlon Wood, by downing an Albatros D.V., he following the burning plane to the ground and his S.E.5a aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire. He crashed 600 yards south of the village of Hayecourt. He was buried where he fell by members of K-Flakbatterie 108.
Flack gun on lorrie.jpg

Now that was some fine shootin' and from the back of a truck, no less.

cul

tcrean7828

tom