Qantas and the AFC Training Squadrons

Is there any known correlation between the white kangaroo on a red background of Qantas and the white kangaroo on the red stripe that 5 Sqn AFC used in England? Were Fysh and McGuiness aware of those markings?



cam

[Roundel]

You might want to check to see when Qantas starting using the kangaroo as a trademark. It may actually be a relatively recent thing. I know that for many years, Qantas used various boomerang trademarks or simply its name in capital letters.

I see that you're using the Australian merchant flag, i.e., the red ensign-based design. Some flag experts maintain that it was the national flag for non-government use until the 1950's.

Roundel,

>It may actually be a relatively recent thing.
>I know that for many years, Qantas used various
>boomerang trademarks or simply its name in
>capital letters.

I am wondering what imagery from their WWI aircraft and experiences Fysh and McGuiness brought home with them and transferred to their private enterprise. By the sounds of it not much. I think the AFC probably displayed graphically their identity by painting kangaroos, boomerangs etc on their aircraft, more than other AIF units. Probably because they had the best outlet. I am wondering how much that translated or continued when they got back to Australia.

>I see that you're using the Australian
>merchant flag, i.e., the red ensign-based
>design. *Some flag experts maintain that it
>was the national flag for non-government
>use until the 1950's.

I agree with them, I think it was the predominant choice of Civil Flag until the Flag Act change of 1953.

When the Flag Act was enacted in 1901 it was intended the Blue Ensign was to be flown for Federal uses only, the white ensign for the Navy and the Red Ensign for commerical uses. The British Union Flag was intended to be the flag that people would fly on Australian soil for private use. It appears that the Red Ensign was more popular for private use than the Union Jack or Blue Ensign.

I believe the Red Ensign was the predominant flag used by Australians during WWI to represent their Australian ethnicity, which is why I have it (courtesy of Scott) on my profile.

It was in 1953 that Menzies decided that the Blue Ensign was to be encouraged for private use. He encouraged it unofficially in 1941 and Chifley in 1947, but in 1953 put it into the Flag Act. Supposedly part of the reason for the Red Ensign being demoted as the popular flag was because it was red and made Australia look communist.

The AWMs collection of flags for the WWI period that are on display only show one blue ensign and the rest are red ensigns.

http://www.ausflag.com.au/flags/ensign.html
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/au.html
http://www.ausflag.com.au/debate/nma/ag010400.html




cam

Hi Cam

As follows from their website.

"The original Kangaroo symbol appearing on Qantas aircraft was adapted from the Australian one penny coin. This design was used subsequently by TAA (later Australian Airlines) as part of its emblem and now features as the centrepiece of the roundel adopted by the Royal Australian Air Force in 1956. It later became part of the insignia of all Australia's Armed Services.
The kangaroo was painted beneath the cockpit of Qantas' first Liberator aircraft G-AGKT during its conversion at Brisbane's Archerfield airport in October 1944, following Qantas' decision to name its Indian Ocean passage the Kangaroo Service. The symbol featured on all later aircraft.

The winged kangaroo symbol was created by Sydney designer Gert Sellheim, and first appeared in January 1947 to coincide with Qantas' introduction of Lockheed L749 Constellations. These aircraft began operating on the UK service in December 1947. They were the first Qantas aircraft to carry the Flying Kangaroo and the first to operate right through to London with Qantas crews. The Flying Kangaroo was later placed in a circle.

In June 1984 Qantas unveiled a new logo conceived by Tony Lunn of the Lunn Design Group, Sydney. The Flying Kangaroo lost its wings once again and was refined to a more slender, stylised presentation. It is the key element in the livery for the airline's fleet and identifies Qantas throughout the world.

A logo created for the airline's 75th anniversary year was added to all Qantas jet aircraft in 1995. Designed by Ken Cato, it brings together the Flying Kangaroo symbol and the words "75 years" to mark Qantas' contribution to civil aviation."

They have a good detailed history on their website.
Cheers

http://www.qantas.com.au/company/history.html

In 1944-45 there was an Australian Article 15 Squadron operating in England - No 456Sqn. They flew Mosquito night-fighters.

Pictures of the squadron's aircraft show a roundel painted on the crew doors which is almost indentical to the RAAF roundel as it appears now.

The style of the kangaroo appears to me (IMNSHO) as being derived from the old penny coin. I have believed for a long time that is where the RAAF roundel came from.

Cam, I noticed you went to the Red Ensign on your ID pane and thought it was very erudite of you to display it in lieu of the Blue. I believe the Ausflag site you have included in your post states the Red Ensign is still the official non-government flag of Australia.

Gordon,

>The style of the kangaroo appears to me
>(IMNSHO) as being derived from the old penny
>coin. I have believed for a long time that
>is where the RAAF roundel came from.

Good correlation, never twigged with the penny. Watts Kangaroo on his Maurice Farman is the earliest picture I have seen of a roo on an aircraft. Was the roo backed penny around before 1914?

>I noticed you went to the Red Ensign on your
>ID pane and thought it was very erudite of
>you to display it in lieu of the Blue.

Contrary to your compliment about my learned choice, I had to look up erudite ;)

>I believe the Ausflag site you have included
>in your post states the Red Ensign is still the
>official non-government flag of Australia.

I think so, but the Blue Ensign is "encouraged" to be flown privately on land for the civil population and in 53 was made the national flag of Australia displacing the British Union Flag.


cam