Victories with captured planes ?

[Regulus]

Having trouble with the flu, my brains don't seem to work very normal - not that I'm saying they do otherwise if I don't have the flu - but this gives me the time to invent questions I would otherwise never have thought of.
I started wondering half asleep, half awake, if there have been victories or claims made while flying a so called 'beuteflugzeug' ?
I remember that in WW II the German KG 200 used even B17, B24, Spitfire, Lockheed, and dozens of Russian planes,... which were succesfull in a number of cases, bit did the same happen on both sides of WW I. We all have seen the photo's of these captured planes under new management, but were they really used in battle ?

VBR from Regulus

greetings

okay, this is one I did find recently and had made a note of, from Above the Lines, one of the only reference books I have.. (so far)

Otto Kissenberth, got his last confirmed kill of an se5a, possibly of 60 sqd, while flying a captured ex-3 naval camel when commanding Jasta 23 on 16 May 1918.

He then seriously injured himself by crashing the same camel on 29th may 1918 which stopped him flying at the front for the duration.

(Maybe the Camel deserves a kill for this)

Theres a photo in Above the Lines of Kissenberth standing in front of the camel.

Whats kinda interesting, is that there are no Camel's in his list of kills, so he must have "acquired" it somehow

I havent seen any others as yet.

Hope this is of interest

Graham Evans

[Frank_Olynyk]

I have major doubts about any captured aircraft being used in combat in World War 1. Certainly on the Allied side, captured aircraft were quickly grabbed by the boffins (or whatever the WW1 term was), and taken to safe territory for inspection and testing. I have never seen a British combat report indicating that a captured aircraft was being used. Further, I doubt very much that the Germans would use a captured aircraft in combat; I do find it a little surprising that front line units were able to retain some form of control over captured aircraft, at least long enough to repaint them in German markings, and be photographed in front of them. I suspect, in the case of Kissenberth in particular, the fact that he was killed while flying a Camel has lead someone at sometime to assume that he was flying it in combat. Once stated in print it has become a fact. Can anyone point me to documentation published before Above the Lines supporting his use of a Camel in combat? I believe von Schleich flew a captured SPAD, and he may also be another one who is supposed to have flown it in combat, and been credited with a victory. Documentation please, not folklore.

Frank.

[Regulus]

Graham,

I loved the story. Indeed I think the Camel should get it's very personnal victory !

Yes, as you say the Grub Street books are great. They also published the missing part of the RFC Communique's, that were started by Donovan publishing. Good sources for info too if your working on the airfields.

Thanks !

VBR from Regulus

Greetings Frank

a slight correction if I may :-

I suspect, in the case of Kissenberth in particular, the fact that he was killed while flying a Camel has lead someone at sometime to assume that he was flying it in combat

He wasn't killed flying the camel (according to the book) *just seriously injured. *After a partial recovery he became the commander of the Schleissheim flying school.

He actually died while mountaineering in 1919 in the bavarian Alps.

As to the veracity of the facts, I can only quote what I have read and name that source, *of course, if someone can disprove that, then I am more than happy to listen and learn

Graham

On the topic of using captured equipment, my father's unit, a Canadian 25-pdr field artillery battery, apparently acquired a German 88, complete, with ammo,etc., and for a period of time during the Italian campaign used it against its former owners. They were very impressed with it.

[Boom]

Gotta agree with the not-likely school for 14-18 period. If nothing else the ethics of the period. Imagine safety from your own side a real problem as well.

Wasn't a Siemens-Schukert fighter an almost exact copy of a Nieuport 14 or 17? Recognition problems in a dogfight.

Like to believe that any squadron, Jasta, escadrille that did capture a flyable machine would take it around the patch a few times before delivering it to "higher authority" I sure would. Worked such an event in Duel Over Douai. (Had to sneak a plug in somewhere.)

cheers, Boom

[Regulus]

Talking about safety, I remember that in WW II one of KG 200's B17's was shot down by Flak, who thought of course they were dealing with an Allied plane, not with a mysterious or secret operation of the Reich.
Now as it was a normal thing to use other material that felt into the enemies hands, so concerning the planes, why did they paint them over with their own colours. Just for show ?

:

VBR from Regulus

*There is an article by Jon Guttman in "Windsock International" Vol 7 No.6 *Nov/Dec 1991 *called "Under New Management" in which a photograph of the Sopwith Camel formerly of C flight Naval 3 has been *repainted in Jasta 23b colours.
Kissenberth exercised his priviledge as Staffelfuehrer to use this Camel instead of the Pfalz D.IIIa and Roland D.VIa fighters that Jasta 23b was equiped with at the time. * * *
Guttman also states that Kissenberth's 19th victory on May 16 1918 (a SE5a at Tilloy) was scored in this Camel. Kissenberth was seriously injured on May 26 when the Camel's engine quit 40 meters above Jasta 23b aerodrome at Epinoy. He survived the crash but his injuries put him out of the war. Ray Rimmel has also done a colour profile of this aircraft which is based on the photograph in the Guttman article.
Otto Kissenberth fell to his death while mountaineering in the Bavarian Alps on Aug 2, 1919.

Nieuport 17C.1 B1514 formerly of 63Sqdn RFC was flown by Uffz. Paul Bauemer when he served with Fl.Abt.7
Bauemer flew several patrols in this aircraft although he shot none down with it. *
Photo published of this aircraft in article.

Ltn. Gustav Leffers flew a captured Nieuport 11 rearmed with a LMG 08/15.
Guttman says it is alleged Leffers flew combat missions in this aircraft and was killed in it on Dec 27 1916 by Sous-Lieutenant Mathieu de la Tour. It is is contradicted by the records of N.3 which credit's him with a Halberstadt over Peronne that day.
* Photo also published of the aircraft with Leffers.

* * * * * * Les Damiers 8)
* * * * * * * * * * *

Hi everyone,

I have to agree with Frank that it was probably more folklore then fact concerning the flying of captured aircraft in combat. Case in point, I read a passage in Quentin Reynold's book They Fought for the Sky that said Hptm. Schleich scored his 20th kill flying a captured Spad. But according to Above the Lines, his 20th kill was a Nieuport XII.

Add to this that I also read in "Aces of the 1914-1918 War" (Harlyford Press) that Schleich flew a Spad 7 into a formation of French Spads and was promptly chased away after they finally noticed a Spad with iron crosses in their midst. There is no mention of him scoring with this aircraft.

I do tend to believe that these pilots did occasionally fly enemy aircraft, but to fly them in combat does stretch it a little. Is there an abundance of facts to back up any of these episodes? :P

waiting patiently,

JASTA75