Roucourt or La Brayelle?

[GMU]

Was this at Roucourt or at La Brayelle? I know this is an old topic and there are some threads here discussing this, but it is still not clear where was this picture of Jasta 11 taken. Old references indicated this as La Brayelle, just west of Douai, south of Cuincy. Other authors like Ferko and Kilduff locate this at Roucourt near Douai.

I have always believed this photo was taken at Roucourt in the month of April, where many, many , pictures of Jasta 11 were taken . Now, some forum members like Dan San Abbott, and Bruno (Froggy) from France, claim this to be at La Brayelle. Is there any new evidence (that I am not aware of) that leads this to be at La Brayelle? I just want to know




THE CASE FOR ROUCOURT

On January 8, 2005, forum member JFM posted some photos during his visit to Roucourt and
Boistrancourt. I took the liberty of using two of his photos to compose a panoramic view of Roucourt airfield as it looks today



These two photos taken in April 1918 at Roucourt. Von Hoeppner visiting Jasta 11 and Kurt Wolff 's Albatross





You can clearly see the Saint-Géry à Roucourt church to the right and the tent hangars in the background. Compare the hangars shown at these two photos with those shown at the Jasta 11 line-up photo. They are the same. Moreover, look the ridge in the background of the line-up photo and compare it to the ridge shown on the modern photo.The only thing missing is the Chimney and the brick building.

Furthermore, on Peter Kilduff’s illustrated Red Baron, page 51, the line-up photo is shown on the front page of a contemporary newspaper, 1917 edition, vol 10. The legend underneath the photo refers to Rittmeister Richthofen’ s jasta 11 ready for battle. One must remember that Manfred Von Richthofen was promoted to Rittmeister on April 7, which leads us to think that the paper and photo came out after that date. Jasta 11 moved to Roucourt on April 15th.

The fact that so many Jasta 11 photos were taken at Roucourt on the occasion of MvR promotion, Von Hoeppners visit, Jastas 11’ s 100th confirmed victories, father’s visit, etc, and by looking at the contemporary photos, one concludes that the jasta 11 line up was taken at Roucourt.

Regards,

[GMU]

THE CASE FOR LA BRAYELLE

First we must determine where the airfield was located. I took a picture supplied by Froggy (Bruno) from France and superimposed it on a Google map of the area.




Dan San Abbott argues that the field was located in an area bound by Rocade Miniere to the West, Charles Behague/ F Anicot to the North up to Cuincy, Rue d’ L’ Egalite on the East, and Rue de Fabourgh d Esquerchin to the South. He points out that the Chimney was located midway the North and South bounds and a little bit to the East of Rocade Miniere.

However, with the help of the supplied old map of La Brayelle, supplied by Bruno, one can clearly see that the landing area was to the west of Rocade Miniere exactly where the modern Renault factory is located. The Chimney is located to the East, just south of the R to Esquerchin, where the military barracks were located and seen on old pictures. The old hangars (not necessarily the 1917 hangars) were located near the crossroads Rocade Miniere and the R to Esquerchin.

The important point here is that there was a Chimney and we know where it was located. To point the Jasta11 line up photo here, one must establish where the tent hangars were.

In any case, I believe the airfield in 1917 extended to the west of Rocade Miniere, and the Jasta 11 photo (if it took place here ?) the planes must have been lined up facing south west , basically parallel to Rocade Miniere with the chimney on the background . They could have either been on the east side of Rocade Miniere or west of Rocade Miniere on the present day Renault Factory. One important thing though, and Froggy could help us ( as I have not been there), is to determine if you could spot a ridge on the background of this position . This ridge would be to the North of Cuincy……


Regards,

[Grinseed]

GMU, I am convinced that all the photos were taken at Roucourt.

However I do not think your orientation of Froggy's map on the GoogleEarth image is correct.

If you check the first British map I have attached you can see that where the road crosses the canal just north-east of where the canal bends south. As in Froggy's map, the road runs back towards Douai on the northern side of the canal. There is a large loop showing on the Google image that must have been built later, but if you zoom in closer on the original image you will find the older road closely following the canal. This road then turns northwest and crosses the Chemin des Postes. The distinctive curve to the west of this intersection is still visible. It is along the western side of this northern running road I believe is where the airfield once stood, one 'block' further east of where you have placed it on the Google image. The road you have chosen appears to have been built across the airfield perhaps about the time the factory was built.

In the second British map you can follow the road further north where it intersects the 'east-west' Esquerchin road and just beyond it turns north towards Cuincy. I dont think that the road actually ran straight to Esquerchin but as the British map shows it leads there.

Just how all this affects the location/orientation of the La Brayelle laundry chimney I am not sure at the moment, but as I have stated I believe the chimney in the photo is at Roucourt.

Just out of interest I have also included a contour map of Roucourt which shows the wooded ridge to the east of the various photographers' locations. The ridge at the eastern point reaches a height of 70-75 metres.
The blue marks and aircraft icon, I assume were added back in 1917.

Cheers

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
There is no forest of trees at LaBrayelle.
DSA

[JFM]

I thought this was solved as Roucourt already:

1. No trees at La Brayelle; trees branches and shadows clearly visible in famous D.III lineup photo. I.e., not La Brayelle.

2. Building and tent hangars visible in the clear Von Hoeppner photo posted by Lance matches the tent hangars visible in photo that shows the Roucourt church (subject of photo is D.III being pushed backwards) and the lineup photo.

3. Photos taken in 2004 show nearly identical lay of the land as seen in 1917 photos. Major difference now is airfield has been farmed some nine decades now and partially covers cobblestone road.

4. No ridge near La Brayelle.

Also, if the photo of the church was really taken at La Brayelle, then the Albatros lineup would have been fairly close to being aligned parallel with it. Since it has been stated the lineup faced south, then the church must've faced south. Now, I could be wrong, but aren't churches aligned east/west, not north/south?

[GMU]

Originally Posted by Grinseed

GMU, I am convinced that all the photos were taken at Roucourt.

If you check the first British map I have attached you can see that where ............ It is along the western side of this northern running road I believe is where the airfield once stood, one 'block' further east of where you have placed it on the Google image. The road you have chosen appears to have been built across the airfield perhaps about the time the factory was built.

Cheers

Grinseed,

I see your point. Apparently the road to the east of the field, as shown in the field’s plan, is not Roccade Miniere but Chemin de LaBrayelle. As you said “a block to the east”. Roccade Miniere was not there but built later and crossed the field.

Froggy, what do you know about this? It is your town………………………….

Thanks for the maps. The map of Roucourt clearly shows where Fosse Roucourt once stood.

labrayelle.jpglabrayelleII.jpg