SE5 unit?

mikebrn · 1 April 2009, 05:17 AM

This might not be possible but can only ask

I have searched through some old archives messages and there is some very useful info for me (thanks to the many) on one of the last actions of the war. The one in particular is the morning action between 4 AFC and

Jasta Boelcke where 4 Snipes led by Lt. Cato encountered 7 Fokkers led by Bolle. The other Snipe pilots were Goodson, Parker and Rhodes - I have Franks' Boelcke book and can guess some of the Jasta B pilots involved (Bormann, Bassenge and a few others but this educated guesswork).

There is reference to another SE5 unit in the action (4 SE5s) - it is referred to as "British" but perhaps might have been 2 AFC?

I am just putting together a dogfight scenario for a set of wargaming rules and would like to include details of this action but ideally would like to find out which SE5 unit took part. I accept this might not be feasible but somebody may have the info and this forum is the very best place I have encounted for such nuggets.

Thanks in advance.
Mike

R Gannon · 1 April 2009, 08:13 PM

Mike

Off the cuff I would not like to hazard a response but I will look into my crystal ball and get back to you.

Cheers Russ.

mikebrn · 2 April 2009, 12:01 AM

Russ,

Jolly decent of you. Not the most important thing in world affairs but there's just a gap on my sheet of paper that looks awkward

Mike

Graeme · 2 April 2009, 01:20 PM

Mike

4 AFC were in action in the vicinity of "Buisennial" (actually Buissenal) while No 2 AFC (SE5s) engaged in combat over Houtaing, only two miles south-east of Buissenal. Lt

Frank Alberry, Lt Charles O Stone and Lt James Joseph Wellwood each claimed a Fokker DVII out of control.

Graeme

R Gannon · 2 April 2009, 05:22 PM

Mike

I think the four 'British' SE5's which co-operated with the 4 AFC patrol in an engagement with 7 Fok DVII's to NE of Tournai at 1015 were from 74 Sqn as Capt Kiddie of this unit claimed a Fok DVII dest at Cordes at 10.15 - Cordes being NE of Tournai.

Possibly Graeme can add a little extra detail on the 74 Sqn claim.

I don't go for the Frank's connection that Cato's formation fought Js 2. In my opinion the said Js 2 claims relate to the later 13.15 engagement, when Capt Baker's & Capt King's flights of 4 AFC, after escorting 27 Sqn DH9's back across lines, went back to tackle a formation of 12 Fok DVII's who had been following and lost three of their number for their efforts including Baker.

2 AFC had also been part of this Wing attack on Wattenies A/D led by LtCol Strange and the 2 AFC claims noted by Graeme relate to an engagement with 5 Fok DVII's during the raid.

As to the two Snipes lost from Cato's patrol - one was downed by Flak and one by a Fokker - my leaning being towards another JG III unit Js 27 -who have 3 claims this date but without times or locs but clearly in this general area (one likely a 25 Sqn DH9).

Cheers Russ

mikebrn · 3 April 2009, 01:17 AM

That's great stuff, chaps - where do you guys get this priceless info from !!??!!

It is much appreciated.

Mike

Graeme · 3 April 2009, 01:16 PM

As Russ points out, 4 Sqn AFC was involved in two discrete engagements, the first at about 10:15 (British time) in which Lt E A Cato (Snipe E8074) claimed a Fokker DVII out of control north-east of Tournai. At about the same time Capt Andrew Kiddie of No 74 Sqn (SE5a F885) claimed a Fokker DVII that crashed near Cordes, about 8 miles north-east of Tournai.

The later engagement was in the vicinity of Buissenal around 13:15 (British time) in which Lt H A Wilkinson (Snipe E8085) claimed a DVII out of control, Lt G Jones (Snipe E8052) a DVII in flames and Capt R King (Snipe E8050) a DVII in flames and another that crashed. 2 Sqn AFC were in action at about the same time (13:10 from the combat reports) with Lt F Alberry (SE5a 6995), Lt J J Wellwood (SE5a D6964) and Lt C O Stone (SE5a D6919) each claimed a DVII out of control over Houtaing, about 2 miles south-east of Buissenal.

4 Sqn AFC lost a total of five Snipes in these two engagements:
Snipe E8072, Lt E J Goodson (Pow), 11:15, north-east of Tournai
Snipe E8073, Lt C W Rhodes (Pow), 11:15, north-east of Tournai
Snipe E8038, Lt P W Symons (Kia), 14:15, east of Buissenal
Snipe E8062, Capt T C R Baker DFC MM (Kia), 14:15, east of Buissenal
Snipe E8064, Lt A J Palliser (Kia), 14:15, east of Buissenal.

I have no times for the claims made by Bolle of Jasta 2, but they were two at Englefontaine, 30 miles or more south of Tournai, another north of Tournai and a fourth at Escanaffles, 10 miles north of Tournai; I have Bormann's claim at 13:20 German time, 12:20 British time east of Renaix (Ronse), 14 miles north-east of Tournai.

I'll see if I have any further details.

Graeme

Graeme · 3 April 2009, 04:03 PM

From RAF Communique No 32:

A raid was carried out on Chapelle a Wattines aerodrome [about 2 miles south-west of Houtaing] by 103, 2Sqn AFC and 54 Sqns from a low height, protection being afforded by 88 Sqn and 4 Sqn AFC. 103 Sqn attacked first, dropping their bombs from 1,000 feet, obtaining a direct hit on a hangar which went on fire and many bursts close to the angars; two hangars went on fire as the result of this attack and two more received direct hits. A machine on the aerodrome was shot at, and one which had a forced landing a short distance away was attacked and shot up and the mechanics working on it all killed or wounded. Troops, transport, and trains were also attacked with machine gun fire in the neighbourhood of the aerodrome and Leuze station. 2 Sqn AFC were attacked by Fokker biplanes as they were diving on the aerodrome and released their bombs from 4,000 feet. Six enemy machines were brought down by the escort of 88 Sqn and 4 Sqn AFC. A machine of 88 Sqn observed before leaving that all the hangars were either burnt or burning. 123 25-lb, 8 112-lb, and one 230-lb bombs were dropped during this raid.

Claims that I have been able to identify are:

Lt G H Blaxland, 2 AFC, DVII out of control at 12:45 over Houtaing (about 2½ miles north-east of Chapelle-à-Wattines)

Capt A Hepburn + Lt A Tranter, 88 Sqn, Pfalz scout crashed at 13:00 at Foucaumont (less than two miles east of Chapelle-à-Wattines) and another crashed between west of Mainvault and Foucaumont (Mainvault is about 4 miles north-east of Chapelle-à-Wattines)

Lt E E Davies, 2 AFC, two DVIIs out of control at 13:00 over Houtaing

Lt K B Conn + 2nd Lt K C W Craig, 88 Sqn, a DVII crashed at 13:05 near Foucaumont

Lt C E Lacoste + Lt I W F Agabeg, 88 Sqn, a DVII destroyed at 13:08 over Foucaumont

Lt F Alberry, Lt J J Wellwood and Lt C O Stone, 2 AFC, a DVII out of control each at 13:10 over Houtaing

2nd Lt H A Wilkinson, Lt G Jones and Capt R King (2), 4 AFC, DVIIs at 13:15/13:20 near Buissenal, a little over 3 miles north of Chapelle-à-Wattines.

Graeme

R Gannon · 3 April 2009, 04:57 PM

Graeme

Excellent stuff.

Cheers Russ

Graeme · 4 April 2009, 01:36 AM

Hi Russ

Nice to be back.

Lost the use of the laptop for a few days due to getting infected by some Security Centre spyware that took a while removing.

Looks like 4 November 1918 was a bumper day for "overclaiming" since I've details of at least 74 RAF/AFC claims. Might take a little time to sort the wheat fromthe chaff

Graeme