Why wasn't Richthofen awarded the oak leaf?

[Willi Von Klugerman]

Why is it that Manfred was awarded the Order of the Red Eagle instead of the Pour Le Merit w/oak leaf?When Gen.Ludendorff heard about this he scoffed and said,"He has won many battles!".

[FliegerJG1]

You have your answer there. The committee felt that Richthofen did not meet the criteria for the oak leaves because he had not won a battle.

FliegerJG1

[Volker_Nemsch]

... had a different meaning for higher ranking generals in those days.

For them "winning a battle" meant, that a frontline was crossed on a lenght of X kilometers and that the troops and went Y kilometers deep into enemy territory. You can put your flag at the farthest point of advance. It is a conservative point of view coming from the centuries before.

Winning a battle in the air was a different thing for them - especially since the British aircraft came back soon after every "lost battle" even when the results were horrible for them. Another thing was, that MvR was a bit to young to get an order only a few old higher ranking officers (mostly generals) received.

I think, that the "Red Eagle Order" was a more than a "way of consolation" (in Germany we say TROSTPFLASTER) for MvR. He surely was aware, that he had received a very uncommon medal with an outstanding history in Prussia.

Just an idea ...

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[FliegerJG1]

Volker,
Thank you very much for this explanation! I was not aware of what "winning a battle" actually meant.

FliegerJG1

[Barrett]

Actually, I believe presentation of the Red Eagle was considered a tad excessive in some quarters since (apparently) it usually went to field-grade officers and above. That means majors, regimental commanders, etc. Now, JG.I likely was the equivalent of a regiment and maybe that was the hook "they" hung it on.

If you look at the warrant for the PlM, winning a battle or campaign (or conducting a successful siege) was in the early criteria. Offhand, I think the only PlMs mit Eichenlaub went to army and front commanders.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Herr Willy:
When the PlM Ordern Committee turned down Oak Leaf Award, I believe it was Ludendorf was p.o. and answered, MvR has won X (fill in the number) battles, more than any General in the German Army!
It reminds of of a G.I. during WW2, a real guff-off, always in trouble, a prepetual private, who was awarded the Soldiers Medal, for an act of heroism, that should have been given the The Distinguish Service Medal. The Soldiers Medal given in War Time is extremely rare, tougher to get that the CMH. It is given in peace time for saving a life, like perhaps someone drowning. The gas truck caught fire on the flight line, he ran to the truck and drove it out in the middle of the field, got out and strarted run away when it exploded and rolled him like a ball abour 40 yards. He was not hurt. The night it happened, he stole Officer of the Day's jeep and drove it to the mess hall for breakfast. He was something else.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Michael_Dailey]

That reminds me of the story of Private Snuffy Smith, who won the CMH as a gunner on B17's if my memory serves me correctly. When all the brass arrived for the award ceremony, they had to put out a search party for Smith and found him at the mess hall peeling potatoes for the latest in a long line of minor infractions.

MDD

[VtwinVince]

The Prussian Army had strict rules regarding the awarding of decorations, although sometimes these were broken by none other than the Kaiser himself. However, no junior grade officer would have been a candidate for the Eichenlaub, and, indeed, it was extremely unusual and perhaps unique that von Richthofen received the Red Eagle in the class awarded to him.

[jaba-the-hunt]

It happened several times that the prussianand other countries broke the rules for bestowal awards and and member of the aviation service were most of this rule breaker.

Here some examples:

Max Immelmann - commander cross of MtHO
Manfred von Richthofen - RAO 3rd class with X and crown
Rudolf Windisch - crown Order 4th class with X as an NCO


Regards Alex

[Reinout]

The criteria for the PlM were from the 1740's!

They were:
-winning a land battle
-winning a sea battle
-capturing or succesfully defending a fortress

Winning a sea battle was almost as straightforward in '14-'18, but a land battle was certainly different. The original criteria originated in a time when wars were decided by a handful of pitched battles after some strategic manoeuvering.

While the orders chancellory managed to redefine these criteria for regular PlM awards to junior flying officers, so that the number of succesful combats or the number of succesful bombing/reconnaissance raids became the norm, they did no such thing for the Eichenlaub.

Of course, while most of the trouble with the old criteria were to the detriment of deserving young officers, there has been at least one case where the advantage was given to the youngster. In August 1914 a certain leutnant Otto von der Linde approached a Belgian fortress -a formidable speedbump in the German advance- with a few men. He parlayed with the owners and conjured up an image of wholesale destruction from German artillery unless the Belgians retreated from the fort. The panicked Belgians scattered and Von der Linde managed to capture the fortress along with some prisoners and a lot of supplies. The joke of it all was that there really was no artillery barrage possible - that existed only in the bluffing words of Von der Linde, but the Belgians bought it. He was awarded the PlM for capturing the fortress although it was not the way originally intended in the 18th century. It is unknown to me whether the orders chancellory awarded the medal because they could see the humour of this bluff or whether they were forced to against their wishes considering the strict criteria.

As for granting exceptions to their own rules when awarding medals, I do believe the following also apply:
-Wilhelm Paul Schreiber: posthumously awarded PlM
- Rudolf Windisch: awarded PlM on the assumption that he was taken POW alive
-Otto Kissenberth: awarded PlM with 19 victories because his injuries prohibited him from further scoring
- Hermann Goering: only 18 victories at the time of the PlM proposal. However, when the award was granted (a proposal review period in 1918 could last up to two months!), his score stood at 21

Kind regards,

Reinout