multiple claims

[steven brown]

I've noticed that British pilots made multiple claims ( 3 or more ) in one day or even one flight on a number of occasions and other than Rene Fonck, I haven't seen any from other nationalities. I'm sure that not all are over claiming. I know that McCudden's 4 claims on Feb 16, 1918 have been confirmed, but what of the others, for example Woollett's 6 claims in 2 flights on Apr 12, 1918. Have any of these others been confirmed or at least been shown to be plausible?

[Graeme]

steven

The British were most definitely not the only multiple-claimers.

In the just the last few days of the war, multiple claims were made by:

Ltn d R Alfred Fleischer, Jasta 17, two claims on 3 November
Ltn d R Paul Wenzel, Jasta6, two claims on 3 November
Oblt Karl Bolle, Jasta 2, four claims on 4 November
Ltn d R Wilhelm Neuenhofen, Jasta 27, two claims on 4 November
Ltn d R Hermann Frommherz, Jasta 27, two claims on 4 November
FlugMr Gerhard Hubrich, MFJ IV, two claims on 4 November
Ltn d R Otto Könnecke, Jasta 5, two claims on 4 November
Vfw Hans Nulle, Jasta 39, two claims on 6 November

There are dozens of other examples of multiple claims, starting with the double claim made by Ltn Max Immelmann, FFA 62, on 13 March 1916.

As far as the French go, Brig A C Pegoud and Le Rendu, MF 25, submitted three claims on 5 February 1915
Sgt A C Pegoud, MF 25, a brace of claims on 3 April 1915
Sgt Georges M L J Guynemer, N3, a pair on 3 February 1916
Sous Lt Jean M D Navarre, N67, two claims on 26 February 1916
etc, etc.
The last multiple claim I have noted is the two claims made by Sgt J Dufour + Adj A Buisson + Sgt E Raymond, Esc R240, on 3 November 1918.

For the Belgians:

Lt Jan Olieslagers, 1ere Esc, two claims on 25 June 1916 and two more on 3 May 1918
Lt Edmond Thieffry, 5me Esc, two claims on 3 July 1917
Lt Andre E S de Meulemeester, 1ere Esc, two claims on 19 August 1917 and two more on 21 February 1918
Lt G M G G B Kervyn De Lettenhove, 1ere Esc, two on 21 February 1918
Lt Willy O F J Coppens, 9me Esc, made nine multiple claims (mostly balloons) including three in a day, twice.

Graeme

[steven brown]

Graeme,
Thank you much again. You can always be counted on for an informative reply. I had not seen Bolle's claims for 2 SE5a and 2 Snipes. Do you have any info on Woollett's 6 claims? I didn't mean to imply that only the British made mutiple claims, but they seem to claim 3 or over more often. I'm curious which are confirmable, like McCudden's 4, or at least possible. Thanks again and good to hear from you.

[josquin]

Steven

Since you are inquiring about Woollett's 6 claims in the same day, you
should ask about the 6 claims of Capt. John Lightfoot Trollope, MC & Bar,
of 43 Squadron, on 24 March 1918 during two patrols (morning & afternoon).

Regards

Josquin

[steven brown]

josquin,
Thanks for the reference. I would like to know how many of these high daily claims had substance. I assume that they contain alot of aircraft that were hit but got away, but McCudden's 4 in one flight were for real, with 3 crashed and 1 damaged and forced to land. His example shows that it could be done, so all of them can't be examples of over optimistic claiming.

[R Gannon]

Guys

We should not forget von Schleich's three claims on 8 May 18. I just like bringing this one up.

Will get back with some detail on the Trollope & Woollet claims.

Cheers Russ.

[steven brown]

Following josquin's suggestion, I looked up John Trollope in " Above The Trenches " and in the narrative, the book mentions that when he was repartriated, he claimed 3 victories in his last flight. The book dosn't mention any corroborating evidence, but he was credited with the victories. At least for this incident, the confirmation standards were quite lax. Of course, everyone did this sort of thing sometime. As Russ has pointed out, even the Germans with their stricter rules, were not above lax standards. That's why I wonder about these multiple claims.

[FOKKERJ]

Hi Steven Brown,

Too bad that nobody has been able to answer your original question.
Perhaps someone that can will see your thread.

Best Wishes, Jay

[steven brown]

FOOKERJ,
Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure that it's a difficult question requiring possession of many original records, which is why I can't answer it for myself. I'm confident that Russ or Graeme will handle it nicely.

[Graeme]

steven

One thing to bear in mind is that there wasn't a confirmation process for claims made by crews of the British flying services; for this reason, the standards for multiple claims were no more or less lax than those for single claims.

russ

nobody said they had to be corroborated claims!

Graeme