Which German units?

[Lyffe]

I have letters home from a British aviator in which he describes two combats from which he was fortunate to excape.

He was an observer in a BE2e spotting over enemy territory on the first occasion when the aircraft was attacked by 5 aircraft near Faucourt L'Abbaye, during the evening of 26 July 1916. From his description of events he might have damaged one aircraft before managing to escape when some British 'fighting scouts' joined the fray. He describes the German aircraft as being

".. a new sort of biplane, as fast as the Fokker, which both fires through its propeller and has an observer firing behind."

In the second incident he was piloting an RE8 when it was attacked by 3 or 4 aircraft on the morning of 22 November 1917; on this occasion he crashed near Anneux.

From these few details would it be possible to identify which German units were involved and, if so, how did they report the events?

TIA
Brian

[Shredward]

Hello Brian,
The Roland CII was relatively new in July '16. First introduced to the Front in April, there were only 35 in service on June 30 (Windsock Datafile, Peter Grosz).
Trevor Henshaw's TSTB has 15 Sqn RE8 A3730 on a
CP combat fuel tank shot up Flesquières 1230pm ftl OK (Lt CKM Douglas/2Lt WH Steele).
Flesquières is about 3 Km SW of Anneux.

Cheers,
shredward

[R Gannon]

Brian

A name & unit for the aviator would not go astray. Have taken details and see what my combat log reveals. Shredward has probably nailed the crew from TSTBF. A little busy at present but will get back to you hopefully in a few days.

Cheers Russ

[Lyffe]

My thanks gentlemen - I'm OK with the British crews as I have Douglas' logbooks (both as an observer (the first incident) and pilot), plus letters he wrote describing the events.

It wasn't only dangerous in the air; after coming down on 22 Nov he wrote:

"We had an interesting survey of the battlefield on the way back, without getting shelled much, though we had to do a sprint once to avoid gas shells, having no gas masks. We were given breakfast in a luxurious Boche dugout, where the owners had had such a rude awakening two days earlier."

Russ,

I'd be grateful if you have anything on one other incident. The entry in his logbook for 18 April 1918 records:

"Attacked by 8 triplanes. Force-landed G15 b77 (which I think is near Arras). Engine shot through."

Douglas' writing is atrocious, but I think the observer on this occasion was Lt Davis.

Brian

[R Gannon]

Brian

22 July 16 is a little problematical - do you know which squadron he was with? Also are you sure this was the actual date of the combat?

22 Nov 17 is a little easier - the opposition has to be Jasta 5. This was third day of the Cambrai offensive which was a total surprise for the Germans, as is well indicated in your extract. The sector had been quiet for some five months and the German's had stripped most of their air units from it, sending most north to the Ypres sector. Consequently Jasta 5 was the only fighter unit in the Cambrai sector at start of the British tank led offensive. JG I was despatched from Ypres sector but did not make an appearance in the skies over Cambrai until 23 Nov - other units followed. Jasta 5 pilots made four claims on this date but none look to match this 15 Sqn downing.

Off the cuff the 18 Apr 18 incident would most likely be against one of JG III's Jasta's - Js 2, Js 26, Js 27 & Js 36. Will get back to you when I have checked my log.

Cheers Russ

[Lyffe]

Many thanks Russ.

The incident was on 26 July 1916 (I think you mixed the two dates I gave originally). Douglas was flying as an observer with 34 Sqn, which I believe was at Allonville at the time.

So far as the November incident was concerned it may be that none of the Jasta 5 pilots saw Douglas land and failed to realise he'd been hit. Unfortunately his letter doesn't say what happened to them. He did write:

"..... it is usually possible to avoid the fire of scouts by 'stunting', though RE8s wont stand a great deal. A large piece of fabric broke loose yesterday, but the machine held together all right."

Douglas' son will be fascinated by what you are telling me.

My thanks again.

Brian

[R Gannon]

Brian

Oops yes you are right - 26 July not 22 July. I use a local library PC for my visits to Forum and scribble notes in a notebook.

Worked out he was in 34 Sqn - he was wounded on 16 Oct 16 - shot down very probably by Ostv Reimann of Jasta 2. Later with 15 Sqn, he also had another force landing on 30 Nov 17 - at Flesquires on A4433.

18 Apr 18 is a bit of a bother however, as it was pretty poor weather with very little aerial activity. No German claims.

Douglas rates a mention in a short 15 Sqn history in an early issue Cross & Cockade GB. States he was a Professor of Meteorology.

Will get back to you in a few days.

[Lyffe]

Apologies Russ, it was 11 April 1918, not the 18th - I was reading the entry from a distance and although I know it's hard to believe a '1' can be mistaken for an '8', believe me, with this chaps writing it can!

He took off at 3.20 pm, flying at 10000 ft for a 'Shoot'. He must have been attacked at about 5 pm, as his logbook records 2 hours 30 minutes flight time.

Could you tell me how to acquire a copy of the 15 Sqn history please? I think he would have been amused to hear himself being described as a Professor of Meteorology - he never was. He was taking a Maths degree at Cambridge, but only completed two years before joining the Royal Scots in December 1914.

However, he had a passion for meteorology and would record temperatures at 1000 or 2000 ft intervals from take-off to the top of the climb at the beginning of a sortie, then relate these to cloud types. This was something that had never previously been done, and his papers were ground-breaking.

He joined the Met Office after the war to become the greatest forecaster of his generation, and was the lead British forecaster for the D-day forecasts. The other forecasters wanted to give a 'Go' for the 5th June, but he (correctly) thought otherwise, so D-day became 6th June.

Makes you wonder what might have happened in 1944 had Douglas not survived WW1.

My thanks for all you've done for me to date, I'm very grateful.

Brian

[R Gannon]

Brian

Have been a little busy of late & not able to frequent FORUM. Will have another look on 11 Apr 18 - sounds more promising as off the cuff I know this was a day of air fighting. The German attack on Bethune on 18 April is noted as occurring under conditions of snow & sleet.

Your other message was also kindly passed onto my e-mail address by the web master.

I'll get back with more detail re the 16 Oct 16 downing - I have it written up that way in my log and try to take great care in matching who was actually shooting at who.

I am conversant with the decision to go on 6 Jun 44 re the met details. I think it gets good treatment in both the 'Longest Day' and a more recent Tele-movie about Eisenhower and the lead up to D-Day. The Battle of Normandy is another area of great interest to me.

Quite annoyed to read in the paper that the French President had not bothered to invite the Quenn to the up-coming 65th aniversary - citing it was going to be a Franco-American celebration!!!! Talk about history being re-written!!!! Who does he think actually carried the day??????

As to the 15 Sqn history - contact me in personal messages - provide your postal address and I'll see what I can do for you.

Cheers Russ

[R Gannon]

Brian

11 Apr 18 - CK Douglas now a Captain flying with 13 Sqn - FTL in RE8 B5087 with observer Lt Daria. Left 1720 combat E of Arras. This is listed in Henshaw's TSTBS.

Looking at your details - attacked by 8 Triplanes - then they were probably attacked by Jasta 27 led by none other than Herman Goeing. The units KTB (war diary) is partially preserved in a copy of the OTF journal. This states an 8 strong patrol flew a mission between 1650 & 1830 which saw 8 combats but no victory claims. Jasta 27 were a Triplane equipped unit at this juncture. British & German times matched on this date.

As to 16 Oct 16 - Jasta 2 (then the gun German fighter unit) claimed two hapless BE's over the Somme battlefield - the first going to Ostv Reimann SW Thiepval at 1405 as his third Luftseige. This was most likely BE of Lt Horsfield & Lt Douglas shot about over Warlencourt. A little later Hptm Boelcke destroyed a second BE to S of Hebuterne at 1420 as his 33rd victory. The victim - BE 6745 from 15 Sqn.

Cheers Russ.