July-Dec 1917

[steven brown]

Russ,
I find myself in agreement with you on this subject. We may quibble over words, (when does eroded effectiveness become defeat? ), but the fact is that the RFC/RAF gained and held complete domination over the battlefront.
Thanks for the detail about Dec 1916 losses, you know I always appreciate that.

[RussGannon]

Dave

Couldn't agree more. But I bet there are quite a few looking in on this debate who are in denial as to all this.

An artillery officer once told me - 'If the Artillery get their fiireplan right; then the only people who need to go in are the Survey Corps, so as to re-arrange the contour lines!'

I myself was a gentleman of the Armoured Corps - used to run around in those German Leopard tanks - indeed we used to affectionately call them 'Panzers'. Actually a damn good tank - couldn't understand why the RAAC went for the Abrams and not Leopard II when they upgraded post my time.

Cheers Russ

[Barrett]

Russ, I sorta remember that the Yanks tanks (!) came with a better supply/support offer but can't say fershure. Anyway, just for bragging rights I'd druther drive a Panzer than an Abrams....

[RussGannon]

Barrett

Yes I keep in touch with a major still in the RAAC and the answer was support and inter-operability. And apparently everyone is happy with them. But it seemed to come out of the blue. I get the annual RAAC journal and circa 2002 - Leopard with upgrades was going to be good until 2015, then there was an apparent overnight 'done deal' between our 'little' Jonnie Howard and your George 'doubleya' Bush. Gee that Oliver Stone movie scarred me!

My worry is the logistics of keeping the Abram's fuel guzzling turbine fed. Your US boys had to have enforced halts in both Iraq wars in order to get supplies up - I've been a guest and worked with US military and know full well that you guys have a far better logistics machine than the Aust Army.

Even in my day with Leopards - track kilometers were always an issue. But yes the Leopards were good in my books - I actually caught the tail end of the Centurion, which one of our Brit exchange corporals dubbed - '52 tons of plumbers nightmare!' Proved to be tough old buggers in Vietnam though - took lots of RP7 hits but none were actually knocked out. No I didn't serve in Vietnam, (did travel through Vietnam in 1996 and did tour the DMZ) but there were still lots of guys who had when I joined. But Leopard was like dream compared to the old 'Cents'. When they decommisioned them and put some on plynths - I really started too feel a little old, because I can still remember how new the Leopards smelled.

For my sins I also ran around a lot in M113 & M588's when I got stuck on a Brigade headquarters. Actually stood in presence of Gen Franks when he visited us.

Old Tankie / Tanker

Russ

[jsontag]

Originally Posted by steven brown

Old Man,
Thank you very much for that remarkable overview and history of the evolution of German doctrine. I have not been able to find anything that economical in words or informative in my reading so far.
Thanks to everyone else as well. I feel like an eager student sitting at the feet of masters. A few more decades of reading and studying should hopefully allow me to hold my own and maybe even contribute.

I agree. Old Man is one of the most knowledgeable around here. I have been reading this and am soaking it all in and re-reading again.

Old Man, maybe you could start a new topic on the war in the east as I know nothing about that, especially the air war.

[jsontag]

Originally Posted by bristol

Absolutely Russ---and what British General----ever----before or since ever had those massive numbers to contend with?

As Foch said---' Never at any time in history has the British army achieved greater results in attack than in this unbroken offensive.....' And to paraphrase John Terraine a bit...This was a victory due to the excellence of the ordinary fighting soldier, the commanders of armies, Corps and Divisions--and the loyal unselfishness of their Commander-in-Chief, who always new the cost had to be borne.

Britains Army of amateurs turned consumate proffessionals won the war----a pity that it's politicians could not win the peace, and that misconceptions of the way the war had been won, and neglect of the victories that had caused this, not only made the next 'round' more certain, but also made it more difficult to conduct and more ruinous to win.

Dave.

Just curious as I've not seen mentioned here yet, what about the French Air Corps and French Army?

[bristol scout]

Hi Jonstag,

In a nutshell, the French army fought the war of mass armies 1914--16.

After Verdun the British 'new' armies took on more and more of that honourable role----after the failed Nivelle offensives---and all the overblown promises not fulfilled, with the French army in mutiny and near mutiny and their morale very very shaky--the British army took on more and more the major role and the great trials, and victories of 1918 were very largely a British and Dominion 'thing'

That is not in any way claiming the French did nothing---but the simple fact is after Nivelle they were not the same Army, and that unpalatable fact had to be kept from the Germans as much as possible. And therein lies much of the misery for Frances Allies during those months of careful nurturing of French Morale.

For the French air service-----i'm not the best to ask as i do not consider they were in any way comparable with the R.F.C./R.A.F. and this lack of aggression i feel they showed colours my objectivity. If i'd been a German pilot/observer i would have wanted to be on the French part of the front!

Dave.

[jsontag]

Originally Posted by bristol

Hi Jonstag,

In a nutshell, the French army fought the war of mass armies 1914--16.

After Verdun the British 'new' armies took on more and more of that honourable role----after the failed Nivelle offensives---and all the overblown promises not fulfilled, with the French army in mutiny and near mutiny and their morale very very shaky--the British army took on more and more the major role and the great trials, and victories of 1918 were very largely a British and Dominion 'thing'

That is not in any way claiming the French did nothing---but the simple fact is after Nivelle they were not the same Army, and that unpalatable fact had to be kept from the Germans as much as possible. And therein lies much of the misery for Frances Allies during those months of careful nurturing of French Morale.

For the French air service-----i'm not the best to ask as i do not consider they were in any way comparable with the R.F.C./R.A.F. and this lack of aggression i feel they showed colours my objectivity. If i'd been a German pilot/observer i would have wanted to be on the French part of the front!

Dave.

Dave, thanks very much for your info. Why wasn't the French Air Service comaparable with the R.F.C./R.A.F.? I've read about some of the French aces, granted that doesn't mean anything, but what happened to the French Air Service? Did it turn in to then an R.F.C. Dominion thing against the Germans?

James

[bristol scout]

As i said James---regretably my ----yes, i admit it, Latent Francophobia does not permit me to be suitably objective enough i fear.

All i can sensibly say therefore is, whilst the French army performed with the deepest of devotion to duty (pity that word is unfashionable nowadays) right through that war (pity about round 2) ---even during those very shaky times i mentioned earlier---and we should not forget that her Allies had to bear a heavy price during those months---on balance the mainstay on the Western Front from mid 1916 onwards---increasingly so---were the British and Dominion troops.-----Not trying to dodge half of the question here----just think that French aircrew, fighter and Bomber, were quite glad that 'up the line' there were very aggressive airmen faced by the best of the German air services-----who, therefore, were not facing them!

My Francophobic attitude, whilst reprehensible to many here will, nevertheless not seem so unreasonable to some---and at least i've admitted it rules against my objectivity somewhat.

Dave.

[jsontag]

Dave, so from mid 1916 onwards the R.F.C., British army & Dominion forces were the major players on the battlefield and in the Air? I never realized that. How big a part then did U.S. forces play? Sorry if I've gotten off topic.