July-Dec 1917

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

Well, as one of those despised "Germanophiles" Russ is always harping at (and one of the few that hasn't left this forum in disgust), I feel I need to speak up in defense of the activities of the Schlachstaffeln. One can find evidence of their effectiveness in Allied accounts if one looks deep enough.

On 3 October 1918, during the Meuse-Argonne struggle, a German report stated that German aviation attacked ground targets with bombs and m.g.'s on both sides of the Meuse. Oblt. Hofmann, CO of Schlachtstaffelgruppe II of the 5. Armee, led his Gruppe through strong flak and m.g. fire to attack a column of American vehicles on the Montfaucon-Gerecourt-Dannevoux road. Schlagruppe II was made up of Schlasta 3,13,19, 26 and 29.

An American executive officer of 'A' Battery of the 124th Field Artillery, Capt. Robert J. Casey, was in place about 2,500 meters north of the Véry-Cheppy or Véry-Avoncourt crossroads. His diary was later published as The Cannoneers Have Hairy Ears - A Diary of the Front Lines. He wrote:

"3 October...About 5:30 o'clock...we heard a racket overhead and looked up to see a fleet of aeroplanes.

"There must have been 50 of them, all flying low, all intent on obliterating the board walk.

"They began to kick out their eggs as soon as we saw them. The first bomb hit a picket line a little way up the hill - a line belonging either to the 7th Field or a camp of engineers. I thought the first was going to flatten the hills. Scraps of horse dropped on us for half a minute and then we were knocked as far as the ditch, which was filled with slimy, stinking refuse. After that there was no keeping track of the bombs or of the machine gun casualties. The eggs rained down like projectiles out of a quick barrage and every time they struck they found a target.

"Air warfare is perfectly horrible because there is no such thing as protection against it. One is as safe lying flat on the surface of the ground as he would be in a trench.

"One bomb early in the attack struck an engineer kitchen just as a mess line was passing it. Scraps of human debris were tossed about 50 or 100 yards.

"Our machine guns squads forgot what they had been told about annoying the boche aviators and they turned loose. Archies behind us opened up. Doughboys along the road began to snipe with rifles and the din stunned the ears so that the whole place seemed a vast silence.

"There was plenty of action in the valley. Men running about from nowhere to nowhere, falling into shell holes and crawling out again, circling their own tracks, hiding behind scrubby trees...

"All vehicles on the road - and there were plenty of them as always before dark - seemed to be operating on Lieut. Rodgers' suggestion: "Get the hell out of here - now!'

"Stalled wagons were pushed over on their sides in the ditch and within a minute or two trucks and ambulances and caissons were driving by a full speed. The aeroplanes circled about Véry and came back toward the east.

"We took fifty casualties out of the wreckage in our own neighborhood and laid them out in a ditch. It was impossible to salvage all the victims. The second bomb had distributed them pretty thoroughly."

In the midst of the attack, ten SPAD's from the 28th Aero Sqdn showed up. Lt. Meyer forced one of the attacking planes, a Hannover CL. IIIa, to land. Meyer himself landed nearby but turned his SPAD over and wrecked it (there are U.S. Signal Corps photos of both the Hannover and the SPAD). The unidentified Hannover crew was taken POW, and revealed they were members of Schlasta 3, Schlachtstaffelgruppe II.

Casey's estimate of the number of planes he saw is pretty good - five Schlastas with about 7 planes each, plus ten Spads, equals 45 planes.

I took all this info from Alan Toelle's wonderful article in OtF, Volume 3 No. 4. The German info wass provided by the late Germanophile Rick Duiven; co-author of the superb book Schlachtflieger.

A pretty convincing account of the efficiency of Schlachtstaffeln, in my opinion.

[Gregvan]

Interestingly enough, there is a brief German first-hand account of some of the fighting on 3 October 1918. Oblt.d.R. Konrad Hoffmann, commander of Schlasta 26b, was in an attack along with his pilot Vzfw. Ludwig Müller. His account appeared in the Nachrichtenblatt for 17 October:

"With the approcal of the Kommandeur der Flieger - I undertook a voluntary ground attack flight with 6 aircraft at 4:30 in the afternoon. Very heavy traffic, especially involving motorized columns on the road from Montfaucon to Gercourt and Montfaucon to Dannevoux, was thoroughly attacked with mortar grenades, small bombs and machine guns. When the Staffel attacked a second time amid heavy flak and machine gun fire, my aircraft received several hits by machine-gun bullets in the main fuel tank and fuel lines, among other places, at a height of about 200 meters."

Hoffmann wrote on that his pilot managed to get fairly close to the German lines before making a forced landing. Both German crewmen managed to crawl to their forward posts and safety.

That is found on pages 102-103 of Schlachtflieger!

[Gregvan]

Hi Again,

Capt. John W. Thomason's wonderful book Fix Bayonets! is an episodic, anecdotal account of the actions in which he took part of as a member of the U.S. Marine Corps at Belleau Wood, Soissons, Blanc Mont and elsewhere - written largely with an ear for the particular vernacular of the frontline leathernecks. Though not as "official" or easily dated and located as other accounts, this passage from his chapter "The Charge at Soissons" reflects his own actual wartime experiences, at least I think so:

"...in the rear, bloated observation balloons appeared on the sky-line. 'Them fellers gets a good view from up there. Lonesome though...'

'Wonder where all our planes went - don't see none - " "Hell. Went home to lunch! Them birds, they don't allow no guerre to interfere with they meals...Hey - yonder's a covey o' them avions now - low- strung out - Boche! Hit the deck!

"They were Boche - sinister red-nosed machines that came out of the eye of the sun and harrowed the flattened infantry, swooping one after another with bursts of machine-gun fire. Also they dropped bombs. Some of them went after the observation balloons, and shot more than one down, flaming, before they could be grounded. And not an Ally plane in sight, anywhere! To be just, there was one, in the course of the afternoon; he came from somewhere, and went away very swiftly, with five Germans on his tail. The lieutenant gathered from the conversation of his men that they thought the Frenchman showed good judgment."

Now, the casual reference to 'red-nosed' machine made me first think he was describing fighters, but then they dropped bombs as well. We know that one Schlasta on the American front - Schlasta 26b - had red flame-marked noses. Just a thought. It could have been a combination of fighters and Schlasta a/c.

[R Gannon]

To all

Please understand that contrary to the claims of some I am not a Germanophobe nor do I despise Germanophiles on the whole. But I do believe that a considerable body of Germanophile myth has been allowed to gain dominance in this fraternity. I am simply offering a much needed reality check in regards the conduct of the air war. I stand by what I write and will always hold myself accountable in regards historical truth & accuracy. If this is not to the liking of some then so be it.

Cheers Russ

[josquin]

Greg,

Your contributions to the Forum are unfailingly informative and balanced, so
I was considerably disquieted by your prelude to an otherwise illuminating
discussion regarding ground-support work by the German air service. Your
word choice ("harping," leaving in disgust, and the tone resulting therefrom)
was most unfortunate and hardly necessary for the development of your discussion. As to the extent that it reflects your sentiments, certainly you
have the occasion to express them. I question the need for such expression
rather than its legality.

With respect to the factual information you conveyed, I found it quite
supportive of your argument concerning a higher profile for German
ground-support activity. A query, however: the German officer you
quoted referred to the mission of 3rd October as a "voluntary" operation.
I find the wording to be problematic: "voluntary" suggests something
occasional and extraordinary rather than common and routine. In
addition to the quote from the U.S. Marine, how many additional
German ground-support missions can you document, specifically?
Granted, the mission of 3 October was clearly punishing and effective,
but how common was this? Just as we know of one German bombing
attack on the Bertangles aerodrome, at night, how many ground-
support missions were carried-out against the Allied frontlines and
behind Allied lines? We know that the Allied air services performed
a substantial amount of effective ground-support work--and suffered
the losses that were its inevitable accompaniment. I am interested in
establishing some equivalence here.

Regards

Josquin

[Romani]

I will make some changes to the previous post.

To all:

Please understand that contrary to the claims of some I am not an Anglophobe nor do I despise Anglophiles on the whole. But I do believe that a considerable body of Anglophile myth has been allowed to gain dominance in this fraternity. I stand by what I write and will always hold myself accountable in regards historical truth & accuracy. If this is not to the liking of some then so be it.


Russ, you sound like a broken record. Do you never tire of copy pasting that? We all now what side you are on, so your claims of impartiality sound insincere, no matter how strenuosly you deny it, we all know you have an agenda, and we don't have a problem with it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

For those of us interested in pure knowledge of history, of what happened and why, we don't care very much about the personal bias of historians. Contrasting opinions are neccessary to arrive at the truth.

If however, a historian is narrow minded, biased, one-sided, inflexible, or unwilling to accept he is wrong or accept different views to his own, then with all due respect to his knowledge and expertise, a question mark should be attached to his name and the notation "reader discretion advised", and this goes for anybody on either side.

You are not going to persuade anyone by insistence and repeatedly attacking those that disagree with you. We got the message after the first couple times.

Your attitude and that of others is not conductive to debate, silence doesn't mean people agree with you or that you have won because your opponents have nothing to say. Is that some people just give up and keep their thoughts to themselves. Since you and others are so wont to ignore the differing point of view, the proper response is neither praise nor critique, but a deafening silence.

I hope you and others enjoy listening to the sound of your own voice, because soon that's all you are going to hear.

[bristol scout]

Greg,
Whilst not doubting that the CL types (to save having to spell Schlachstaffell)did 'something' during their war, my doubt, based on what i have read, or not read would be more accurate, was and is with how much they did---as opposed to how much they should have been able to do---especially during the retreat.
I have quoted historians---and people who were there---not much, indeed hardly anything ever relates to German ground attack being as effective as post 30 outlines! On the British front.

Whilst one could expect they would attack troop concentrations and trenches now and again---it was what they had been created for after all---i have not read of any occasions DURING the retreat when british disarray was compounded by any such attacks--certainly no orders or impromtu action to compare with the British March 26th. order from Salmond to---"Bomb and shoot up everything you can see----Very low flying essential. All risks to be taken. Urgent." And to quote from'Royal Flying corps--a history' from this period ---"Several British Tommies flew so low that the wheels of their aeroplanes touched the ground." wrote a bugler of the 8th. German Grenadier Regiment. "My company commander, Leutnant Nedee, had to fling himself flat on the ground, but for all that he was struck on the back by the wheels of one of the machines, thus being literally run over"!

And certainly on the American (most of the references you quote) 'front'------- the action at St. Mihiel ---in the words of a British observer (Repington) of 13th. September---"All goes exceedingly well.......but we found the country roads much blocked with troops and transport of all kinds. The staff work failed here, and for miles transport congested all the approaches. One enterprising Boche air squadron, flying low, could have played the deuce on these roads, but none came"!

Just my 'take'on it Greg----not that they did'nt do anything--more that they could, and should have done more----resolute and even self sacrificial attacks during the retreat may have been war winning endevours!
Dave.

[bristol scout]

Hi Josquin,
You are quite right that this debate has been most informative and carried out with the utmost care NOT to be overly assertive.

I feel sad that one poster tends always to make attacks 'ad hominem' and he has not dissapointed! Equating peoples considered responses to 'broken records can only bring discord to this debate--a shame really!

That person tends to predicate his attacks on the assumption that an open mind is a pre-requisite for understanding history. Well---yes---but not so open a mind that your brains fall out!

As you know Josquin, and almost everyone else knows, there are good historians and bad-----Who would give much consideration to David Irvings 'history' for example?

I prefer to go along with THUCYDIDES------" I do not think that one will be far wrong in accepting the conclusions i have reached from the evidence which i have put forward. It is better evidence than that of the poets, who exaggerate the importance of their themes,or of the prose chroniclers, who are less interested in telling the truth than in catching the attention of their public, whose authorities cannot be checked, and whose subject matter, owing to the passage of time, is mostly lost in the unreliable streams of mythology. We may claim instead to have used only the plainest evidence and to have reached conclusions which are reasonably accurate...."
'THE PELOPONNESIAN WAR--THUCYDIDES'

First hand accounts balanced by mainstream good historians--giving weight to radical opinions only when they are backed by equally radical evidence. That is the way forward, in any discipline, surely!

Dave.

[Romani]

Originally Posted by bristol

I feel sad that one poster tends always to make attacks 'ad hominem' and he has not dissapointed! Equating peoples considered responses to 'broken records can only bring discord to this debate--a shame really!

Bristol, I will not make the discourtesy to reply to you without addressing you, as you do. I also find your exagerated claims of civility insincere. You are only courteous or pretend to be so when people agree with you, if somebody disagrees with you, you tend to belittle and ignore them. No wonder you get along so well with Russ.

You have been on this forum only since February this year, Russ Gannon has been over a year here, and I was merely pointing out a fact known to all that have witnessed Gannon postings ever since. Aggression painting with the wide indiscriminate thick brush of Germanophilia a lot of people, followed by claims of persecution when people react to his attacks, followed by denial of any wrongdoing.

A shame really, the contents are good, is the form that is lacking.

I personally have no time for these antics, partisanship, bigotry, flag waving or posturing. I only regret them since they get in the way of civil dispassionate debate and tend to drive away posters who have much to contribute but have no taste for confrontation.

Rest assured that personal animosities aside, I am always willing to read your thoughts and ideas as long as they are a interesting contribution.

Regards.

[Romani]

Originally Posted by josquin

Greg,

Your contributions to the Forum are unfailingly informative and balanced, so I was considerably disquieted by your prelude to an otherwise illuminating
discussion. Your word choice ("harping," leaving in disgust, and the tone resulting therefrom)
was most unfortunate and hardly necessary for the development of your discussion.

I question the need for such expression rather than its legality.

Josquin, you got it all backwards, you are blaming Greg for finally reacting to the abusive conduct of some other poster.

When somebody as respected, moderated, polite, civil, and wich does his utmost to keep out of the heated controversies in this forum such as Mister VanWyngarden, does intervene and does it in such strong wording it means some poster(s) have finally abused the forum patience beyond the limit, and such posting is only the tip of the iceberg as the silent majority has elected to remain silent.


PS: I really regret posting two messages that are unrelated to the original thread subject. I would really love to convey some of my thoughts regarding the air war in this thread and the other one, but thread hijacking and the attitude of certain posters has disheartened me and caused me to lose interest in this forum for the past months.