July-Dec 1917

[RussGannon]

Steve

I have no doubts about the courage of German airmen or their ground troops. My axe grind is the way partisan latter day writers present their efforts. A little too much hero worshipping for my liking.

Cheers Russ

[steven brown]

Russ,
I know that you respect all the airmen of WW1, I just felt that needed to be said.

[RussGannon]

Steve

Yes, but it cuts both ways - not you - but there are those who show scant respect for anyone but the Fleigertruppe.

Chers Russ

[RussGannon]

Steve

Been side tracked by Ground Attack thread - which of course had genesis in this thread. Anyway I had scribbled some notes re this subject which you might find interesting.

British Official stats for April 17 & Sep 17 - first figures April second Sep.

EA brought down enemy side - April 91 Sep 132
EA brought down Brit side - 11 7
EA brought down by AA & Inf fire 6 13
EA brought down OOC 174 122
Balloons 18 2
Brit A/C missing 152 124
A/C combat cas inc rtn damaged 276 215 (175 in air combat)
Hours flown 29,613 38,424
Bombs dropped 63ton 125ton
Photos taken 11,682 15,837
Battaries engaged not available 1,372

Pointedly there 49 squadrons for both months though equipment had changed in quite a few. As you can see there was a marked increase in all areas of activity and a decrease in losses. Pointedly whilst there were 80 'Corps' plane losses in April (30%) there only 39 in September (14%) - demonstrating that the Jasta's were far less effective in engaging these most important of aircraft.

Running out of time - have more to say re German claims & losses same periods.

Cheers Russ


An interesting point is tha

[steven brown]

Russ,
I've been distracted by other things myself the last few days. Great last post, you know how I crave numbers, so send more please. I will post at greater length soon.

[RussGannon]

Steve

I'm running out of time - been running up post re the Halberstadt photos.

Very quickly - official German losses for April are given as 66 aircraft whilst for September they listed as 76 - these are Western Front.

The problem with these figures are that the only reflect German aircraft either lost over Allied side or totally destroyed German side. Aircraft that could be recovered and repaired at unit of Armee Flugpark are almost certainly not counted. As such I would at the very least double these figures you want an idea as to what was actually downed in combat. Indeed I would tripple them if you want a comparison to British combat losses figures (the 276 & 215) which include many aircraft that returned damaged but were the struck off charge and sent back to depots for repair.

Also that about 40 % of German loss April, was on French sector whilst easily 80 % of Sep loss, was caused by British - what is very clear is that there is a dramatic increase in German losses against British.

Will say more later.

Cheers Russ

[steven brown]

Russ,
Comparing those numbers from April and September shows quite clearly that the Germans had lost the initiative on the British front no later than the summer of 1917. The reason for this, it seems to me, is the German understandable preoccupation with defence against the unremitting British aggression. This is why I find this period so interesting. Airpower doctrine was reaching a level of maturity and by early 1918, could be called fully modern. All that remained was for technology to catch up.

[RussGannon]

Steve

Indeed I feel the notion of 'Bloody April' is a little misleading. In my view there is a clear line in the sand 16 April to 20 April where I believe the actual tide turned - up to this point the Jagdstafflen enjoyed its most successful period of the air war. On 13 April its most successful day - 23 claims (12 by Js 11). But then poor weather set in and focus temporarily shifted to French sector for the diasterous Nivelle offensive.

When air fighting resumed on British sector on 21 Apr 17 it had a new feel - there was no longer the run away victory for the Jagdstafflen.

As the whole question of German losses is a grey area, one reliable window are fatal losses - these can at least provide a trend.

I did a bit of number crunching and the six months Aug 16 to 14 Apr 17 saw the Jasta's claim some 455 kills over British aircraft for only 30 fatal Jasta combat losses at hands of British. However the six months 21 Apr 17 to end of Sep 17 saw 95 fatal Jasta combat losses against British and some 870 claims. It must be pointed out however that 30 - 40 % of these claims were not 'hard kills'.

Now my rule of thumb based on study of surviving KTB
is that you should times German fatal losses by 3 to get an idea of how many German machines were shot down down.

If you do the maths then up to 14 Apr the Germans were shooting down 5 for 1 but by autumn of 17 this had wained to 2 for 1 in real terms.

Cheers Russ

[steven brown]

Russ,
I have to run, so just a short reply for now. As I stated before, it seems obvious that the GAF Jastas lost the initiative during 1917, but your contention that it began to slip from their grasp as early as mid/late April is very interesting. The number of Jasta claims in May was considerably lower than in April, so you may well be right. Again, thanks for the data. Will comment more later.

[RussGannon]

Steven

The official 6 Armee returns for 31 Mar 17 to 20 Apr 17 concede only 5 kia, 3 mia, 6 wia and 5 aircraft dest. Then for 21 Apr - 3 May 17 the figures jump to 19 kia, 13 mia, 7 wia and 21 aircraft destroyed. But remember 2 Armee air assets were also involved in the fighting over the Arras - Cambrai sector.

But again be cautious with official German returns - I have 57 German loss incidents logged facing British for April - planes down Brit side, pilots / crew killed, airmen wounded and known forced landings. And for Sep 17 I have 98 such events facing British (this excludes losses that can be confidently attributed to French on Flanders sector)!

Cheers Russ