July-Dec 1917

[steven brown]

I've been reading alot lately about the British/German front from July 31, 1917 through Dec 31, 1917 during the battles of Passchendaele and Cambrai. The increasing numbers of Camel, SE5 and Bristol F2 fighters gradually eliminated the German's technological advantage of spring 1917. With their Albatros and Pfalz fighters, while not completely outclassed, suffering from inadequate performance compared to the new British fighters, the Jastas faced a tough environment. It's a testament to their sound tactics and flying skill that they remained effective. Men like Bulow-Bothkamp, Julius Buckler, Eduard Schleich and others rose to the challenge and inflicted a lot of damage on the RFC. In 'Above The Lines', it's mentioned that in Sept 17, RFC losses exceeded those of Bloody April in total numbers, not percentage. A very interesting period to a newcomer like me.

[Old Man]

That is an interesting period, Sir. Of course, because there were so many more English aeroplanes the percentages were lower, but another factor would surely be that German losses were higher that month than in the previous April. The thing about 'Bloody April' was not just the numbers lost by the R.F.C., but the sheer hopelessness of it, reflected in a ratio of losses running four or five English to one German. People's attitudes are much different when they honestly feel they are giving as good as they get....

[bristol scout]

But surely that was a 'hopelessness' not evident at the time! (April that is).
British claims of 126 (added to French claims of 70) would have left the crews of 'bloody April' thinking they were hitting back hard don't you think?

Dave.

[Graeme]

There were at least 368 claims made by the British in April 1917:

7 broke up in the air
9 captured
48 crashed
29 "destroyed"
4 driven down
3 forced to land
28 aeroplanes in flames
15 balloons in flames
2 balloons "smoking"
1 balloon destroyed on the ground
222 out of control

Of these, about 158 were reported in the RFC Communiques.

Graeme

[bristol scout]

I took my numbers from 'BLOODY APRIL...BLACK SEPTEMBER' by Franks, Guest and Bailey, but the higher figures tend to support my feelings that the British and commonwealth flyers perhaps, just perhaps, had no sense of 'hopelessness' AT THE TIME.
Dave.

[RussGannon]

Guys

I pointed this out before - but the Germans were not particularly out-numbered over the Ypres salint The odds were roughly 3 to 2 in Allied favour, but as the Germans fought on defensive they were the ones who could engineer the advantage of numbers in air battles over their own side. And their sound tactics increasingly involved avoiding dog-fights, preferring instead dive and zooming on stragglers and lone ducks retreating to Allid lines. The likes of Bulow, Dostler, Bongartz & Loerzer all did well (Schleich was on French sector) but in truth the Ypres Salient was a grave yard for many a German ace and a reality check for most of the rest with many of them making forced landings and / or being wounded.

No I take my hat off to the likes of McCudden. Rhys-David, Mayberry, Bowman, Hoidge, Fullard, Hazell, Jenkins, etc, etc who routinely had to fly through the gauntlet of Flak to do battle with the Germans over their own side - there they - the British pilots - had little chance to refuse battle or spin away when things got bad.

Cheers Russ.

[bristol scout]

Here here Russ---warmly seconded.

'Flak' you should be horse whipped sir
'ARCHIBALD---CERTAINLY NOT!
Dave.

[steven brown]

Gentlemen,
Russ's points are significant and reflect the reality of the time. The RFC pilots and observers displayed great courage and professionalism, no matter the weather or opposition and most importantly, completed their missions. Stafing trenches and other targets and gun spotting below a 300 foot ceiling is a remarkable performance, as is penetrating deep behind the lines to hold the Jastas at bay.
Despite the clear advantages of defence, life was not easy however for the Jastas. Looking through 'Above The Lines', I've noticed about a dozen Kanonen that were killed during this time and place, and many more wounded. It was a hard time for everyone.
The critical point is that the British won the air campaign. They greatly inhibited the GAF and at the same time gave invaluable assistance to the ground fighting.
In my original post I mentioned only the Germans because I've just got around to reading more about them.

[bristol scout]

'Invaluable assistance to the ground fighting' is dead right.

This facet of the war was yet another lesson that, sadly, had to be re-learnt in the second war-----at great cost.


Dave.

[steven brown]

You're quite right Bristol, it's remarkable how much the British forgot between the wars. One of the reasons I find this time period so interesting, is the evolution of the tactics of the British, both in the air and on the ground. The RFC made a significant leap forward, not just in new aircraft, but the tactics used with those aircraft.
Although nearly all the air combat occurred behind the German lines during this period, it seems that the GAF made some attempts to contest the air above the front lines. These efforts reached a crescendo on Nov 30, but could not be sustained and were inconsequential compared to the RFC impact on the ground fighting. In fact, judging from the losses amongst the experienced German pilots, the overall losses of the Jastas, and presumedly the 2-seat units, must have been high. The British were never in danger of losing air superiority.
I assume that this must have had some long term effects. These losses combined with the expansion in the number of Jastas during the winter, must have noticebly lowered the average quality of the German pilots.