German two-seater crew claims

steven brown · 20 September 2009, 11:28 AM

Is it known how many victory claims over aircraft were made by German multi-seat crews? The only numbers that I've found are in 'Sharks Among Minnows' by Norman Franks. Franks lists 75 claims between July 4, 1915 and September 26, 1916 made by German two-seater crews. The Grub Street books mention a few pilot and observer aces, but this is all I've been able to find.

Gregvan · 20 September 2009, 12:07 PM

One good source would be Schlachtflieger! by Rick Duiven and Dan-San Abbott. It lists all of the claims made by Schusta and Schlasta crews. However, that does not include many others made by Flieger Abteilungen,Kampfstaffeln, etc....

The Germans didn't have as many two-seater "aces" as the British did. None of their two-seaters were specifically designated as fighters, unlike the Bristol F2B and FE2b, etc.

Greg

R Gannon · 20 September 2009, 05:50 PM

Steve

I'll put it on my list of things to do - a list of German 2-seater claims with corresponding Allied losses where they can be identified.

Cheers Russ.

steven brown · 21 September 2009, 09:37 AM

Gregvan,
Thanks for the suggestion, but you're correct about 'Schlachtflieger' not covering all the German multi-seaters. You're also correct about the small number of multi-seat aces. I was wondering if the small number of aces indicates that the multi-seats didn't down many Entente aircraft, and if not, what the reason would be. Reading McCudden, it's obvious that two-seaters were not an easy victory and were able to win the fight.
Russ,
A list like that would be wonderful! I would have to fly to Australia and buy you a beer.

R Gannon · 21 September 2009, 11:50 PM

Steven

I think answer is German 2-seaters & Brit Corps aircraft were focussed on suporting troops on ground not looking for air combats. Both German 2-seater & Brit Corps aircraft took a small but steady toll of their attackers.

British fighter recon & bombers a different matter, as they were involved in pitched formation battles German side of lines which due to fog of war issues, saw some impressive claiming!

Cheers Russ.

steven brown · 22 September 2009, 12:22 PM

Russ,
Your comment about the fighter recon and bomber missions generating more aerial fights is quite true. A good case in point is 20 sq, particularly after they converted to the Bristol. The high level of claims made by them indicate the frequency and ferocity of their engagements. One factor creating high levels of overclaiming is the intensity of the combat.

R Gannon · 22 September 2009, 07:45 PM

Steven

20 Sqn wasn't backwards in claiming when they had FE2d's either! But yes all fighter recon units clearly heavily overclaimed! But as I pointed out in another thread using example of a 62 Sqn mission in May 18 which resulted in the usual plethora of claims - which on the balance of the 'surviving' German record would seem to be baseless - the Strahle diary however shows that his Js 57 were one of their opponents and that whilst no Js 57 pilots were killed or wounded most had their aircraft shot about with two at least had to make emergency landings.

I'm certain if we had that level of data for all German units then, the overclaim factor - not just by Brit fighter recon but also Brit scout squadron's - would not look as excessive as it would seem to be on basis of present picture of German losses. To the point that I realy wish afficianado's would restrain from making these catogoric statements that there were 'no German losses' in regards combats. At best one should say - 'at present there are no known German losses'.

And overclaiming is not a British / US malady - there is the example of a German 2-seater crew (off the cuff I think FAA 263) who claimed and were credited with three possibly four 'Sopwiths' in a fight in 1918 - of which only one is valid. I'll post this next time.

Cheers Russ

steven brown · 23 September 2009, 09:34 AM

Russ,
20sq was certainly aggressive through their whole history. I believe they claimed some 200 victories before they got the Bristol. Everyone obviously over claimed, but I agree that the paucity or incompleteness of the German records make the British look worse than they were. I would think that the British overclaimed around 2.5 to 1 or 3 to 1 for the whole war. In all history, an over claim of 3 to 1 is not uncommon. Given the nature of air combat, over claiming simply can not be avoided. But you know all this. I'm just thinking out loud.

jsontag · 23 September 2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussGannon

I'm certain if we had that level of data for all German units then, the overclaim factor - not just by Brit fighter recon but also Brit scout squadron's - would not look as excessive as it would seem to be on basis of present picture of German losses. To the point that I realy wish afficianado's would restrain from making these catogoric statements that there were 'no German losses' in regards combats. At best one should say - 'at present there are no known German losses'.

Russ,
what happened to the German records? Were they destroyed after the War or possibly destroyed during World War II?

R Gannon · 23 September 2009, 09:32 PM

Steven

On 23 May 18 the FAA 263 crew of Ltn Eisenmenger & Vfw Grund were credited with four Sopwiths - unfortunately do not have time or loc.
This is noted in Nachrictemblatt and two further references seem to suggest, if my little German is any good, that they were attacked by 6 fighters!

Now FAA 263 were operating with German 17 Armee - Bapaume to Arras. Moreover records show that a Ltn K Zimmer of FAA 263 was wounded over Hebuterne this date, dying of his wounds on the following day (later buried Lille)

This in turn points to a 70 Sqn patrol led by Capt Smith-Grant that would seem to have attacked two-seaters c0940 over Courcelette (according to records). In the process Camel D1902 of Lt AL Strckenstrom (SA) broke up whilst diving on the EA. Capt Smith-Grant went on to send an 'LVG' down OOC - his 2nd vic. Unfortunately the 70 Sqn SRB is lost - but D1902 was the only loss - crashing Brit side. It may be others were damaged and spun away but three of the four 'Sopwiths' are clearly an optimistic overclaim. I'm also a little suspicious that the action actually took place over Courcelles (just SW of Hebuterne) and not Courcellette (8km SE of Hebuterne) - a typo error. Which in turn suggests Ltn Zimmer was observer of LVG attacked by Smith-Grant.

Interstingly my copy of Verlustlist has Ltn Karl Eisenmenger as killed / died on 24 May 18 also - this however is not reflected in COTGAS or Fallen German Flyers list by Haeneldt.

Vfw G. Grund survived until 9 Jun 18 when he was killed along with Ltn Hammann loc given Bapaume-Bancourt (pos victims of Belgrave & Saunders 60 Sqn)

Capt Smith-Grant also had unfortunate end - wounded in an attack on 2-seater on 29 May he was killed on the operating table at Doullens result of German night bombing attack.

Cheers Russ.