Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

[Laserlloyd]

Hi Russ,

I just ran it through Babel fish,

In the morning 9,30 we, flying in the squadron to three, sighted 9.8.17 a Sopwith approximately at height of Menin direction Roulers flying. We attacked the same. Offz. Stellv. Mueller it next, pressed him down up to the front on 800 m. The Sopwith descended to it to steep gliding flight behind its lines. Wagner, Vizewachtmeister Jasta 28

Lloyd...

[Chock]

Very true about the sometimes quite petulant claim statements on some German combat reports, although it may be indicative of there being a few ambitious chancers pitching in with a claim in the hope of picking up some scraps.

As everyone knows, there are a huge amount of occurrences on German pilot combat claims that end with 'there were no other aircraft or flights involved in this combat', or words to that effect, which one could translate as: 'don't believe that other guy from Jasta X, as I want a Pour Le Merite like crazy'.

One of MVR's combat reports includes him stating (going off memory here) 'a child knows you cannot hit an aircraft at that range', as a counter to a fellow pilot claiming he also had a crack at some plane the Baron was claiming. To be fair though, had the British system been the same, I bet you'd have seen that on British combat reports too.

Al

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hello Hal And Manfred:
I Just went through Abschnitt B. Flieger=Formationen and found as you have stated, there was no 6.Armee Jagdgruppe Richthofen listed any where. I reread the Chapter titled "THe Defensive Battles of 1917" in "Germany's War in the Air" by General Ernest von Hoeppner about the Battle of Arras, in which these four Jasta were supposedly combined into a Jagdgruppe. There is no mention of any forming of Jagdgruppe for any purpose.
I am well aware the four Jagdgstaffeln were located at different airfields within the German 6.Armee. Was there an experimental Jagdgruppe formed, within a Grufl or by the Kofl?
I am now wondering what source of information H.A. Jones had when he wrote
of the Battle of Arras in Volume III of "War in the Air." A lot of people, including myself have accepted that as fact. Very interesting. Thank for making me take a harder look. By the way welcome back.
Blue skies Hal and Manfred,
Dan-San

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

The experiment was judged a success, and led to the establishment of Jagdgeschwader Nr.1 on 26 June 1918.

Just for the record Dan-San, Do you mean 24th June 1917?

Regards.

Bucky

[R Gannon]

Lloyd

Thanks for that. I must track down this 'Babel fish' as I have quite a bit of original German material and would love to get a clearer understanding.

For the record I concur with 'Jasta War Chronicle' resolution on this one; that Mueller's zlg claim was most likely a French Sopwith 1 & 1/2 Strutter from C226. As I read it the famouse French ace Adj Fonck dove to the formation's aid - under attack from as many as 30 HA but maybe only 10 HA. Still somewhat more that the three in the Js 28 report. Jasta 24 also clearly involved with Ltn Guttler also claiming a 'Sopwith' deiseits (not Naval 10 Triplane as is often seen in print - time & loc way out).

Interesting to note Wagner's report does not even state Sopwith FTL. One must suspect that Js 28 rang up the front and only recieved confirmation that a Sopwith seen zlg (ftl).

Chock

I'm clearly preaching to the converted, but dogfights over German side pretty well always attracked fighters from more than one Jasta. MvR himself in his 'Dicta' noted an occasion when 15 Jasta pilots followed one stricken machine down. It is said that within a Jasta when there was a contested claim that they flipped the coin to see who got credit. But it is apparent that things were not as cordial when claims were contested by pilots from different Jasta's or by Flak.

I also get the impression that prestige could win over - take MvR's last successful fight on 20 April - it is always recorded in printed media that he accounted for the two 3 Sqn Camels (Raymond-Barker kia & Lewis pow) but in fact there were three 'confirmed' Jasta 11 victories awarded for this fight -two by MvR and one by Weiss - all three deiseits (German side), all three 'burnt' and all three at same loc & time. One of these is simply invalid - 3 Sqn's Lt Riley was wia in this combat but returned. Looking at details of fight from BOTH sides, I can't help suspecting that Weiss actually accounted for Raymond-Barker and that MvR shot up Camel of Riley, but who was going to turn down a claim by Germany's greatest hero??????

Its also worth pointing out that in surviving German CR's - the markings of the pilots machine are always recorded - clearly in regards helping identify the pilot who did the lions share of downing the Allied pilot. That is to say ground observers would be asked about the markings of the successful machine.

Cheers Russ

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Bucky;
Something was going between my brain and index finger. It should oof course be 26 June 1917.
Blue skies.
Dan-San

[Chock]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

It is said that within a Jasta when there was a contested claim that they flipped the coin to see who got credit. But it is apparent that things were not as cordial when claims were contested by pilots from different Jasta's or by Flak.

Cheers Russ

Actually, one of those incidents is among my favourite WW1 tales. It was Von Tutschek and Voss in Jasta Boelcke, who both shot at an FE 2B at the same time and brought it down. Upon landing they flipped a coin to see who'd get the victory, Von Tutschek won, and his writing is amusing regarding his fortune on that occasion: 'Since I am unlucky in love, the lattice tail was mine.'

Al

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Chock

Actually, one of those incidents is among my favourite WW1 tales. It was Von Tutschek and Voss in Jasta Boelcke, who both shot at an FE 2B at the same time and brought it down. Upon landing they flipped a coin to see who'd get the victory, Von Tutschek won, and his writing is amusing regarding his fortune on that occasion: 'Since I am unlucky in love, the lattice tail was mine.'

Al

Mates,
To help this along a bit, here is some additional info from my book:

On “Good Friday” 06 Apr 1917, Ltn. Adolf Ritter von Tutschek and Werner Voss were relaxing at Proville when suddenly an F.E.2d (A22) was sighted at 1600 meters. Both pilots quickly took off and raced after the two-seater, eventually cathching up to it over Bourlon Wood. Von Tutschek flying his black Albatros D.III opened fire simultaneously with Werner Voss, putting the engine out of commission with about 60 hits at 0830 hr. The F.E.2d landed near Anneux and Voss and von Tutschek tossed a coin to see who would get credit for the victory – von Tutschek won the toss – ‘Jagdstaffel 2 Boelcke: Von Richthofen’s Mentor’ by Greg VanWyngarden and Harry Dempsey – pg 37.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

[ManfredT]

Hi all,

Birth of the Jagdgeschwader

Großes Hauptquartier, den 26.6.1917
Durch Verfügung des Chefs des Generalstabs des Feldheeres vom 23.6.17 -I c. 58341. op.- ist aus den Jagdstaffel 4,6,10,11 das Jagdgeschwader I gebildet. Das Geschwader ist ein geschlossener Verband. Es ist dazu bestimmt, an entscheidenden Kampfabschnitten die Herrschaft in der Luft zu erkämpfen und zu sichern.
Der Chef des Generalstabs
gez. Thomsen

Birth of the Jagdgruppen

Kriegsministerium, Berlin W.66, den 28.10.1917
Nr. 709/10. 17. A7L
II. Soweit es erforderlich ist, sollen die Jagdstaffeln im übrigen in Gruppen vereinigt werden. Zu diesem Zweck sind zunächst 5 Stäbe für Jagdgruppenführer mit der Bezeichnung "Führer der Jagdgruppe Nr. 1" (usw. bis Nr. 5) nach Maßgabe der Anlagen 3 und 4 aufzustellen.
Im Auftrage
v. Wrisberg

Flying in groups was not new for the Germans, it depends on the tactical situation. You may remember the photographs of Hpt. v.Osterroth (Jasta 12) and Rtm. v.Richthofen (Jasta 11) on 15th of April, when the commander was Hpt. v.Osterroth, as the senior officer.

In April 1917 the Germans have not only to face the offensive of the British (Battle of Arras), but also the serious offensive of the French (Nivelles). Not to forget the 6th of April 1917, when the USA declared war to Germany "for the victory of civilisation", as ambassador Choate wrote to Earl Grey. In the air the French airmen fought with more intelligence than the British and the Germans were somewhat annoyed about the "Laurigkeit" of the French, but stupid agression brought the British a "Bloody April" and the Germans a new hero.

ManfredT

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by Dan_San_Abbott

...It should oof course be 26 June 1917.

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Birth of the Jagdgeschwader

Großes Hauptquartier, den 26.6.1917
Durch Verfügung des Chefs des Generalstabs des Feldheeres vom 23.6.17 -I c. 58341. op.- ist aus den Jagdstaffel 4,6,10,11 das Jagdgeschwader I gebildet. Das Geschwader ist ein geschlossener Verband. Es ist dazu bestimmt, an entscheidenden Kampfabschnitten die Herrschaft in der Luft zu erkämpfen und zu sichern.
Der Chef des Generalstabs
gez. Thomsen

Google Translation:
Supreme Headquarters, the 26.6.1917
By decision of the Chief of Staff of the Army of 23.6.17-I c. 58341. op - composed of a fighter squadron 4,6,10,11 Jagdgeschwader I. The squadron is a closed organization. It is intended to fight a decisive battle of the rule sections in the air and secure.
The Chief of Staff
Signed Thomsen



Hi Dan-San and Manfred T.

I'm not arguing with either of you, I mean, what's a couple of days either way? It's just that I've been led to believe by at least three prominent authors it was 24th June '17.

Herr Thiemeyer, is that the actual telegram announcement you posted above?

I thought the general consensus was that the telegram announcing the formation of JG I was received on the 24th, (presumably stating: "With immediate effect".) and MvR was named commander the next day.

Is this not correct?

Regards.

Bucky