Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

[ManfredT]

Bucky,

a lot of bureaucracy must be taken into account. I believe the order to establish a Jagdgeschwader was given on 23.6.1917, the nomination of the commander with the rank of a Batallions-Kommandeur on 25.6.1917, and the four Jagdstaffeln joined the Jagdgeschwader on 5.7.1917

In the book "Jagd in Flanders Himmel" by Bodenschatz the quoting of the documents is somewhat confuse. For instance the original document "Dienstanweisung und Stärkenachweisung" for the Jagdgeschwader is dated on 28.10.1917

It seems so as if the establishing of the Jagdgeschwader (with the better support) was not that success. It couldn't do more than other Jagdstaffeln, have a look at Jasta 5. At the end MvR was a lone fighter, like Voss, and they died this way.

ManfredT

[R Gannon]

Manfred T

'Stupid Aggression' indeed!!!!

Doing the job regardless of the difficulties I would suggest.

"Our airmen nowhere in sight and the English are as cheeky as the Devil."

KTB II Guards Fusiliers at Bullecourt 7 May 19


Russ

[ManfredT]

Russ Gannon,

sorry, I don't understand you. Are you meaning the German airmen were nowhere in sight during "Bloody April"? I thought the "Cheeky Devils" were brought back from where they came from? (Can't set a wink, insufficient postings.)

ManfredT

[ManfredT]

Russ Gannon,

sorry, I don't understand you. Are you meaning the German airmen were nowhere in sight during "Bloody April"? I thought the "Cheeky Devils" were brought back from where they came from?

ManfredT

Pardon me, can't withstand this smiley with post 11

[steven brown]

Gentlemen,
I find that I must agree with Russ. The aggression of the British is what caused the German material and human shortages to become critical. As the war progressed, the British realized that their aggression needed to be tempered with some tactical common sense, but their refusal to surrender the initiative is what kept the Germans on the defense. I believe calling their aggression 'stupid', misses an important point. Against a more prudent foe the German shortages would never have been so critical.

[R Gannon]

Manfred

No mate the Cheeky Devils were always flying & fighting over the German side because the German Air Service was incapable of achieving anything more than 'air parity' over their OWN side - and as a consequence the front line Germans on the ground rarely saw their own Air Service and were very often at the mercy of British fliers - as the above German quote shows.

As you believe the British were stupid: you must tell me how the British should have waged the air war in April with the equipment on hand; baring in mind the prime purpose of the RFC was to support the offensive. Because as I see it, it is particularly naive to dissassociate the air war from the ground war and then to judge the winner purely on the body count mentality.

And of course we are all well aware of German 'Laurigkeit' during the German Spring & Summer offensives of 1918 - where the Jasta's again fought from the safety of their own lines and as a consequence failed their hard fighting troops on the ground; being shown to be all but impotent in combating the endless British bombing & staffing of German troops trying to advance.

You will never win with a mentality like that and of course the Germans did not win did they?

Cheers Russ

[R Gannon]

Chock & Lloyd

Just a point on the tossing of the coin on 6 Apr 17. It might also be said that Tutschek was lucky that he was an ObLtn and that Voss was only a Ltn!!!

Actually that whole victory tells a tale. As one should know the FE was part of a 5 machine OP which after attacking some German 2-seaters became embroiled in a dogfight with first Jasta 5 and the Jasta 12. A fight some 30 km behind German lines! Needless to say the sitiuation was all in favour of the Germans. Three were shot down over Cambrai & to NE whilst two attempted to make it back to British lines. The two Jasta 2 boys being sent up to assail one of these - A22 which was then down to 2400ft and already under Archie fire from Flak 709 & Flak 507 - indeed its engine may have already been failing. Moreover two Jasta 12 pilots were also pursuing it. In all five elements were trying to get credit for this one retreating FE! Credit of course went to Tutshek. The unsuccessful Js 12 pilot was Ltn Schulte.

Of course it was not all one way traffic - in the couses of the assault on the outnumbered FE's Obln Berr & Vfw Hoppe of Js 5 fatally collided and Ltn Splitgerber of Js 12 was seriously wounded.

Cheers Russ.

[ManfredT]

Russ,

I always appreciate your input. This said, let me be a little bit arrogant: please more text analysis. It makes a difference between "stupid agression" for a military action, and "stupid British" (not my words). I knew a lot of British who call some of the British military actions in WWI as "stupid".

Back to "Bloody April" and the Richthofen Circus:

Eight British airmen of 48. Sqn were each "decorated" with a victory, now written in the book of history, for "destroying" an Albatros DIII on 11th of April 1917. My problem is: I couldn't find any evidence for these 8 victories.

The same airmen were "decorated" with further 8 victories, same date, same place, for sending an Albatros D III "out of control". No problem for me, as I have learned OOC was not a "hard" kill. Lucky British with all these victories in the book of history.

ManfredT

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Chock & Lloyd

Just a point on the tossing of the coin on 6 Apr 17. It might also be said that Tutschek was lucky that he was an ObLtn and that Voss was only a Ltn!!!

Actually that whole victory tells a tale. As one should know the FE was part of a 5 machine OP which after attacking some German 2-seaters became embroiled in a dogfight with first Jasta 5 and the Jasta 12. A fight some 30 km behind German lines! Needless to say the sitiuation was all in favour of the Germans. Three were shot down over Cambrai & to NE whilst two attempted to make it back to British lines. The two Jasta 2 boys being sent up to assail one of these - A22 which was then down to 2400ft and already under Archie fire from Flak 709 & Flak 507 - indeed its engine may have already been failing. Moreover two Jasta 12 pilots were also pursuing it. In all five elements were trying to get credit for this one retreating FE! Credit of course went to Tutshek. The unsuccessful Js 12 pilot was Ltn Schulte.

Of course it was not all one way traffic - in the couses of the assault on the outnumbered FE's Obln Berr & Vfw Hoppe of Js 5 fatally collided and Ltn Splitgerber of Js 12 was seriously wounded.

Cheers Russ.

Mate,
Food for thought.
Have you read the book "Luftkrieg Stürme" (Verlag Gustav Braunbeck, Berlin 1918) by Hptm.v.Tutschek. On pg 92-93 he talks about the coin toss between him and Voss and how it came about.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Bucky:
There are two dates, The date of authorization and establishment of Jagdgeschwader Nr.1, which is 23 June 1917, This is what is listed in the German Armee document:[I]Abschnitt B, Flieger Formationen, page 208. When this was published it did not list the units making up the Jagdgeschwader Nr.1, nor its Kommandeur.
On 26 June a telegram dated 26 June 1917 notified MvR his assignment as Kommandeur of Jagdgeschwader I (Note the difference in designations, that is not a error on my part.)
I am using Jan Hayzlett's translation of the telegram from "Hunting With Richthofen" on page 12, which establishes the date of formation, quote:
Supreme Headquarters, 26 June 1917
By order of the Chief of the General Staff of the field Army, dated 23 June 1917, (Ic No. 58341 op.), Jagdgeschwader I is formed from Jagdstaffeln 4, 6, 10 , 11. The Geschwader is a closed unit. It is appointed for the purpose of fighting for and securing aerial superiority in crucial combat sectors.

Chief of the General Staff
(signed) Thomsen
I find no record of the date 24 June 1917 used anywhere in any pertaining
documents.
Blue skies Bucky,
Dan-San