Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

[R Gannon]

Manfred T

All right a truce. But may I suggest you try to choose your words more carefully.

Look no doubt the British overclaimed, and fighter recon units in particular. But you need to put yourself in their seats and allow for the fog of war and the difficulties of confirming victories over the opositions side. Often times it is what I call the duplication factor. Several pilots or crews engage enemy machines which appear to fall and as is the case these air battles pilots / crews are distracted. An enemy, or even two, do in fact go down and then when pilots look again they see this or these machine falling away well below and then assume its theirs. Then what was in actuallity one crashed and one falling away smoking becomes two crashed, two in flames and three OOC when reports are filled in!

One thing I believe where there is smoke there is fire. We cannot on the basis of surviving German record discount any claims. We can certainly discount 8 Albatross being shot down by 48 Sqn but we cannot discount an Albatros or two being damaged and even FTL.

Look at the example of OStv Mueller - 18 of his victories were 'Jenseits' and even the venerable Dr Bock could only establish that only three to four represent hard kills. I have no doubt that he attacked and indeed hit 18 British aircraft, but most most certainly did not crash. When one fights on the opposite side, one cannot follow machines down and make sure of them. Air battles were things of of fleeting images and one could not stare at seemingly falling foes, as one would risk being jumped and shot down.

Just for the record my take on the German defensive stance was purely pragmatic. In part because for most of time the German army was on the defensive but also because the German supply system simply could not replace machines like the Allies. I read somewhere as much as 10 days for replacement machine during Spring offensives. The German Air Service would simply not be able to stand the attrition of fighting over the Allied side - where every forced landing would become a permanent loss! MvR in his dicta noted this, staing that formation battles on the opposite side will result in heavy casualties. No lack of courage, just pure pragmatism.


Tom

I meant you not Lloyd in previous post - sorry Yes it was serialised in OTF way back. It gives details, plus transcripts of the actual confirmitory reports of Voss, Tamm & Walz. Which were at pains to dismiss the other Albatros (Jasta 12) and Flak as being the cause of the FE's forced landing.

Its a god account and von T comes across as quite a decent fellow. Its a little weak however on efforts of his fellow flyers - the Jacobs, Strahle & Raesch diaries are far better in this regards. The Noltenius diary is likewise a little too self oriented.

Cheers Russ

[ManfredT]

Russ,

thanks for the suggestion. And a little balsam for the soul: the Battle of Verdun was a stupid agression of the Germans, and they failed in air war over Verdun.

Having only rudimentary access to a foreign language there is one advantage when talking about history: no word acrobatics, no diplomatic wrench. Always just to the point.

Furthermore any satisfying answer is not in sight to explain the 16 victory claims of 48 Sqn. Sorry, I forgot to mentioned in my last post two further claims.

Conclusion: for 11th of April the 48 Sqn wrote 18 victories in the book of history. And all 18 victories should be Albatros DIII.

You will never find German documents to verify this phantastic performance. It looks like a propaganda performance to stimulate young men, but "Bloody April" came to a bad end.


ManfredT

[R Gannon]

Manfred

You should track down 'Bloody April Black September' by Russ Guest & Norman Franks (Grub St) it provides a fair and frank accounting of both April 17 & September 18 with details of all known British, German & French claims & losses.

Its the sort of thing I would like to see for every day of the air war.

Will get back to you on 48 Sqn and 11 Apr 17.

Cheers Russ

[J.R.]

Russ,

Would you mind clarifying what you mean by "Laurigkeit". My native German wife says the word doesn't exist. Did you perhaps mean Traurigkeit or something else closer?

J.R.

[StephenLawson]

While there appears to be a great deal of orgnizational information and daily report quotes passing through here, I have to ask - What has this got to do with Camouflage and Markings?

How about a move to . . .Other WWI Aviation Airfields, equipment, tactics, uniforms and all other WWI aviation topics

[ManfredT]

Russ,
the data presented I have tracked down from 'Bloody April Black September', so that we research both the same source.

J.R.,
'Laurigkeit' is the substantive of 'laurig', a German word for cowardly, not used anymore.

StephenLawson,
there was a short discussion about the marking of Lt. Geiseler. Some people maybe interested in the color of the crashed Albatros, a photograph you have never seen before, from a Jasta you doesn't know to much. The seldom chance of talking about History and Colors&Markings together in one thread should be taken. Why the red color of Jasta 11 during the Battle of Arras, why was Jasta 33 called the 'Laubfrösche'? More background story is needed instead of the fruitless discussions about 'yellowish green' or 'greenish yellow'. I am always wondering that ultraviolett radiation is no topic here: five times a patrol at 4.000 meter and you can forget all discussion about the hue of your color.

ManfredT

[ManfredT]

Dear moderators,

please move this thread back to the place Hal and I have chosen, otherwise the interest of posting to this thread could be lost.

Regards,
Manfred Thiemeyer

[GMU]

Why was this thread moved?

Among the many interesting things that are discussed here, some of them never heard by me before, there is a discussion/interest about the colors and markings of Geiseler's DIII, and Jasta 33's markings.

Moreover, there could also be an interesting relationship between this and the birth of so called "Richthofen Circus" (name of this topic) and the use of red color, which began during mid to late April 1917.

I find that by moving this thread to a least exposed position, this may likely cause many people to miss the chance to learn from what has been posted.

I respectfully request to move it back to its original place.

Sincerely,

George

[Graeme]

ManfredT

Don't waste your time looking for 18 German single-seater casualties since No 48 Squadron claimed a total of THREE victories on 11 April 1917 - you should know by now that a shared claim increased each crewman's total by one but the squadron total by only one.

I'll leave it to Russ to post one of his detailed summaries of the action.

Graeme

[ManfredT]

George,
fine that we could give you something. Will wait what happens with this thread here. For sure is that this is no place for discuss the red of Jasta 11 and the Laubfrösche of Jasta 33.

Graeme,
8 British airmen shot down 3 Albatros fighters and gained 18 official victories. I have understood.

ManfredT

PS Did they even shot down one fighter?