Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

[Graeme]

ManfredT

You have not understood.

Four crews of two, ie eight crewmen, claimed three victories and received credit for three victories; No 48 Squadron (and the RFC) received credit for three victories, not 12, 16 or 18.

Whether or not these claims resulted in "hard" kills is open to conjecture; all that can be said is that evidence of the claims exists but evidence of corresponding losses does not.

Graeme

[R Gannon]

Manfred

Graeme is correct only three German Alb Scouts were claimed - but two were awarded to four crews - these are shared victories! Something the British, the French the US and indeed even the Austro-Hungarians did. So too German 2-seater crews! It in no way infers 18 German scouts were shot down or claimed as victories.

One can draw a comparison with the FAA 263 crew of Eisenmenger & Grund on 23 May 18 who claimed (and were credited) four 'Sopwiths' (only one actually valid) - Now they were not credit with 8 confirmed kills were they?

As to 11 Apr 17. This was a four machine patrol which clashed with German scouts c0800/0900 resulting in some falling away. About 15 minutes later they clashed with Jasta 11 and in a fight lasting 15 minutes A3338 & A3323 were seen to FTL in German lines by a 12 Sqn crew. These were claimed by Wolff & LvR. A third machine failed to return and was evidently destroyed by Schaefer. The surviving crew of 2Lt Riley & 2Lt Hall claimed one of this second formation as OOC. On return British AA reported that they had seen the four Bristol's engaged by four EA scouts - two of which were brought down and the other two flew off east. This would seem to relate to the first encounter and retrospectivly the four crews (three then missing) were awarded the two EA 'apparently' brought down.

Now once again I must stress that we cannot state catorgorically that there were no German losses. Indeed BABS makes this point quite clearly in relation to German losses - indeed it heads the German losses listing with 'Known Losses'. All we can be sure of is that there were no German fatalities or wounded. It may very well be that German scouts force landed. Certainly British AA believed two German machines had been brought down.

However having said this there is the 'dead ground' issue - Flanders & Picardy was relatively flat with no real vantage points. Allowing for woods, buildings and the natural curve of the earth, one can assume that from a distance planes simply fell below the observers line of sight. Indeed I suspect this same fog of war issue affected German Flak observers in relation to giving confirmation for German 'jenseits' claims.

Movie makers often use a similar trick in staging what look to be plane crashes!

My final comment is to keep an open mind in regards aerial combats and to entertain the very real possibility that German planes made forced landings even though what presently stands as the 'Known Losses' does not list any. I have previously supplied and can supply plenty more examples of German forced landings which go unrecorded in surviving official German returns.

Cheers Russ

[ManfredT]

Graeme,

below the list of the eight British airmen and the number of their victory for the 11th of April 1917

Tidmarsh victory No6, No7
Holland victoty No3, No4
Adeney victory No2, No3
Lovell victory No2, No3
Brockhurst victory No3, No4
Boughton victory No3, No4
Riley victory No2, No3, No4
Hall victory No2, No3, No4

18 official victories for 3 down Albatros fighters, written in the book of history.

Jasta 11 reported wether a loss nor a wounded for the 11th of April. The same with the other Jastas in that area.

ManfredT

[wings]

Manfred,

I really appreciate your presentation of the Jasta 33 photos, from this time period. Did this unit have a unit color or marking, during Spring-Summer, 1917? Are there any line-up or group aircraft photos from this period, that would show markings, etc?

Thanks

[Graeme]

ManfredT

Regardless of the individual claims, the history book records only THREE "official" victories.

In the words of Pete Townsend "one and one don't make two, one and one make one".

Graeme

[ManfredT]

Graeme,

sorry, that I'm such a stupid one:

was it Tidmarsh's official victory No7 or only claim No7 ?

ManfredT

[Graeme]

ManfredT

I do not for one minute believe that you are stupid.

The main point to bear in mind is that there was no system for officially recognising victories claimed by RFC etc aircrew, although a degree of "authorisation" was the appearance of claims in the RFC/RAF Communiques, although these cannot be relied upon to give an accurate picture.

At this point in time, April 1917, claims were either "decisive" which included aeroplanes that were brought down behind the Allied lines, caught fire, broke up or crashed, plus those claimed as out of control, ie which were not seen to crash etc, or "indecisive" which included machines forced to land behind their own lines or which were driven down damaged etc.

Most pilots kept their own tally (which often did not reconcile with figures quoted in medal citations) and these, generally, comprised only the "decisive" claims.

Tidmarsh had made three claims with No 24 Squadron - an Albatros two-seater crashed on 2 April 1916 (shared with 2nd Lt S J Sibley), a Fokker crashed on 30 April and another Albatros two-seater in flames on 20 May (perhaps alone or, more likely, shared with 2nd Lt D Wilson, 24 Sqn, and Capt Summers of No 22 Sqn). I'll check to see if I have a note of any "indecisive" claims.

With No 48 Squadron he claimed an Albatros scout out of control on 8 April 1917, another EA out of control on 10 April and, depending upon source, two or three EA on 11 April (two out of control and one crashed, all shared with the patrol).

In summary, the best that can be said is that the seven or eight claims listed for Tidmarsh are those which might reasonably have resulted in a German casualty.

Graeme

[ManfredT]

Graeme,

"...there was no system for officially recognising victories..."

I have not noticed that before, because claiming is not my field of interest. When always reading about victories with British airmen, I was somewhat lazy to proof what this means. Someone could speak of British claims, instead of British victories.

It's my view that the British fighters were always brave and no liars when recording their combat reports. But it's also my view that not every attack of a German fighter, which was broken off to avoid a further stream of bullets, could be declared as an 'Out of Control'.

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

ManfredT

[R Gannon]

Manfred

Well we might as well start talking about German 'claims' for as I have shown conclusively time after time, that German 'Jenseits' claims are no more reliable than British claims when it comes to establishing hard hard kills. And to push the point 90% of British claims would fall in the bracket of what the German's labelled 'Jenseits' claims.

Indeed German official stats for victories show that 58 % of German claims were 'Jenseits'.

And for those who still cling to the mythical notion that all German victores were hard kills - I throw the simple challenge of identifying the three victims of von Schliech as result of his epic single handed attack on a formation of SE5's on 8 May 18?????????

And again on losses you simply cannot claim there were no German losses on the basis of what can only be called 'known' German losses.

Here's a little bit of indirect evidence to the extent of German losses. On 6 ARMEE front at begining of April 17 there were 7 Jasta's. Now it is well known that the Jasta establishment was 14 pilots however 12 looks to be the average. That said, well known photos of Jasta line ups - Js 5 in March, Js 12 in mid 17 and Js 5 in late 17 often show as many as 16 Albatros! Clearly top pilots had spares! But even if we stick to say 12 - then 72 fighters should have been available to face the Britisgh air offensive (remember this is only 6 ARMEE). Now it is known that only 42 of 6 ARMEE's fighters were servicable on 12 Apr 17!!!! Which says at least 30 were hors de combat! The number of servicable jumps to 56 for the end of the month but this is simply because Js 33 had joined 6 ARMEE. And again this still shows a shortfall of at least 30 fighters.


Now here is some more indesputable evidence to show that one CANNOT rely on 'known' German lossen to lay claim that no German's were shot down on such & such a date as you are doing here for 11 Apr 17.

Air enthusiasts who know their stuff will know that on 9 May 18 Ltn J Janzen of Jasta 6 was shot down in a combat with SE5's and although he was unscathed his Tripe was written off. Now you will not find that recorded in surviving listings - not in the famed JG I history Jadg in Himmel Flanders, or in Grub Street's 'Jasta War Chronicle' or 'COTGAS'.

Those who know their stuff will also know that Ltn H Kroll SF of Jasta 24 was shot down in combat with a 'SPAD' (sic) during the big dogfight in the evening of 27 July 17 and his Alb DV 2075/17 written off - again a shot down and again not recorded in printed lists chronologies purporting to list German losses.

These are not isolated instances they are simply the tip of the iceberg. And indicative of a culture both prevalent in WW1 and in the modern Germanophile orbit, to sweep under the carpet German planes shot down which did not result in wounds or injury. There has been a shabby argument within the Germanophile orbit to say that a German plane force or crash landed on the German side is neither a loss to the Germans or a victory for the Allies. Well I didn't vote for this and I bet the wider community would not either. Quite simply they were shot down and Allied pilots should be given their due credit. Likewise they should always be given the benfit of the doubt when there as as yet no 'known' German losses as in this case of 48 Sqn three claims on 11 Apr 17.

Cheers Russ

[ManfredT]

Russ,

I like to learn, but my interest will not change to the 'who shot who' minefield.

Germany fought in WWI against the whole English speaking world (USA, Great Britain, Australia. Canada, India), against the whole French speaking world (France, Belgium, Africa) and the Russian world.

This is not the place to ask why, but a place to think about the resources of Germany.

Did you know that sometimes a Jasta consists of only 4-5 pilots, with patrol for only two hours? The pilots you are missing were not shot down, they have never been with a Jasta.

I like your input, but in my opinion it would be better, if you take more the economic facts into account.

ManfredT