Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

[bristol scout]

DIRTYSHIRT

Now come along!

It is NOT hijacking to answer a point opened up by the co-originator of the thread!!!

If a statement is made--or a stance taken---that statement or stance is allowed to be challenged--and should do so without an IMMEDIATE personal attack!! Do you mean to say that in my FIRST debate with MT it is reasonable to be called idiot (and what on earth he thinks he means by in the Greek sense--IDIOTAI---I know ancient history) just for taking a contrary stance--is MT so venerated by you that you can't countenance someone disagreeing with him in a civilised fashion?

I quote some of MT--"let me be a little bit arrogant" (idiot is being a bit too arrogant) "stupid agression" " bloody april came to a bad end".........

Let me also quote GMU from a different thread--but valid nonetheless "......This is a public forum, and we are in a public debate. Of course I am trying to prove your arguments wrong.
I will attack your arguments as hard as I can I expect you to do the same---this is a debate, what did you expect...."

almost the first word said to me by MT was that I was hateful---then very quickly that i am an idiot---well if obsequiousness is mandatory then I will not be involving myself in debates with MT---BUT of course it is not mandatory--only optional ---and I reserve the right to challenge statements--no matter who makes them---and do NOT expect to be personally insulted for having the temerity to do so.

MT may be hugely knowledgeable--or not. But on historical matters and W.W.1 I reserve the right to question his assumptions and erroneous beliefs whenever I encounter them.

This is because I am not an idiot---nor hateful.

Dave.

[Hans]

Great Britain and France were Parliamentary democracies, Germany was a militaristic autocracy ruled, superficially by a 'Kaiser'

Alone this sentence shows that you are interpreting 'history' in your very own manner, still wearing propaganda tinted glasses.

[bristol scout]

Well---was NOT England a Parliamentary Democracy? Was France not?

Had not the reins of Government been ceded to the German military---A military Junta can not lay many claims to the democratic process---Can it?

A strange pair of 'glasses' indeed if you can see through them any different!

[sheppo]

idiota ("ordinary person, layman")

Amazing stuff the english language....Nowadays it means something entirely different.

Chris

[ManfredT]

Dave,

διότης (idiótes) „Privatperson“ „Eigentümlichkeit“, „Eigenart“.

ManfredT

[bristol scout]

Well---not quite,
That may be what wikipedia or some such says--but the actual meaning from the birth of what we know as Democracy in Athens in the 5th. century B.C. means someone not expected to have a vote--someone who 'held no position'. One of the 'common folk'---not peasant (Penetes') but, let's say 'unskilled worker' ---- But no, none of those accusations are at all derogatory are they.......... Someone without a say---someone who holds no position ---common---perhaps even 'unskilled worker' Yeah, thats O.K.---gosh, I thought for a moment he was being abusive---but, silly old spectacle wearing me............

Yeah!

[Hans]

Well---was NOT England a Parliamentary Democracy? Was France not?

Is it funny or is it absurd how you are interpreting sometimes?

[bristol scout]

Funny is for comics (which I don't read) Absurd is not my usual default position---and I am afraid I have'nt got a clue what on earth you mean----you raised some kind of query with my contention that England and France were democracies--I asked you what they were then!---your answer is incomprehensible to me----so perhaps I'm 'idiotai' after all!

Dave.

[R Gannon]

Manfred

Reference your post 130 - I'm not doubting Germany was up against it. I am just highlighting the point, time & again, that the present picture of German losses falls way short of the actual mark. Unless you have the original Jasta 11 KTB at your disposal, then you cannot emphatically claim no German's were shot down on 11 Apr 17 or any other date.

Sure the British overclaimed for a variety of fog of war issues which come part of the deal when you fight over enemy territory and the same applies to German 'jenseits' claims which made up 58 % of German claims. I cannot see why the Allied pilots should be penalised simply because they fought their air war over the German side. Even the lowly OOC is a victory because to be perfectly frank they represent German planes that quit fights - quit fights over their own side! And contrary to all the hype - whilst the German's were outnumbered in the bigger picture - fighting over their own side meant that they could almost always manipulate local superiority of numbers.

The weak point of lack of German numbers meant that whilst they could gang up on some hapless formations, a large number of Allied missions over the German side went unchallenged! There is a good account by Lt Charley of 54 Sqn who flew in the spring & summer of 1917 in his undergunned & under powered Sopwith Pup on countless escort missions for 22 Sqn to Cambrai and back - and whilst the likes of Js 2 & Js 5 made a fight of it on some occasions - the majority of missions however went unchallenged. Several time with Jasta formations shaddowing but for what ever reason not attacking! I find this difficult to rationalise from the German perspective - allowing free & unhindered enemy recon of ones rear areas.

I disagree that German Jastas flew with only 5 or so pilots. Check the good diaries like Strahle & Raech for that claim does not stand up. These diaries also show that Jastas very often flew in Jagdgruppe formations.

And you must also not be deluded by MvR's combat reports - I guarantee that when he states he is fling with only one or two other pilots; that he was flying part of the Lower Patrol of a Jasta 11 formation and when he states he was fling with five or six others; then he was leading the Upper Patrol - 300m behind & 300m above the Lower Patrol.

Manfred my interest is to present a fair & honest account of the air war free of all the myth & hype that has since been attached to it. And to give credit when credit is due and not to reserve it soley for one side.

Cheers Russ

[ManfredT]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Manfred

I disagree that German Jastas flew with only 5 or so pilots.

Cheers Russ

Russ,

the most famous German Jagdstaffel, Jasta 11, consists on 2th of May 1918 of only two fighting pilots. Next day Ltn. Just was wounded, so Ltn. Wenzel was the only one until 8th of May.

Ltn.d.R. Richard Wenzel, Jasta 11: "Noch saßen wir unter dem Eindruck dieses Verlustes in unseren Buden, da kam eine Ordonnanz und meldete, daß auch Scholz, unser schneidiger Vzfw., eben auf dem Platze tödlich abgestürzt war. Das war viel für diesen Tag. Da am nächsten Tage auch Just verwundet wurde, Steinhäuser nicht fliegen konnte, Wolff und Richthofen zur Beisetzung des Meisters in Berlin waren, Carius versetzt, so war ich in diesen Tagen der einzige flugfähige Pilot von 11."

ManfredT