Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

crankcase · 4 November 2009, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Russ,

the most famous German Jagdstaffel, Jasta 11, consists on 2th of May 1918 of only two fighting pilots. Next day Ltn. Just was wounded, so Ltn. Wenzel was the only one until 8th of May.

Ltn.d.R. Richard Wenzel, Jasta 11: "Noch saßen wir unter dem Eindruck dieses Verlustes in unseren Buden, da kam eine Ordonnanz und meldete, daß auch Scholz, unser schneidiger Vzfw., eben auf dem Platze tödlich abgestürzt war. Das war viel für diesen Tag. Da am nächsten Tage auch Just verwundet wurde, Steinhäuser nicht fliegen konnte, Wolff und Richthofen zur Beisetzung des Meisters in Berlin waren, Carius versetzt, so war ich in diesen Tagen der einzige flugfähige Pilot von 11."

ManfredT

Quick transl.:
"We were still weighed under by this loss, when an orderly reported that Scholz, our dashing sergeant, had just crashed fatally. As Just was wounded the next day, Steinhaeuser couldn't fly, Wolff and [Lothar] v.R. were off to Berlin for the funeral of the Master [MvR], and Carius transferred, I was the only operational pilot of [Jasta] 11 during these days."

R Gannon · 5 November 2009, 04:08 PM

Manfred

I'm sure we can find individual examples like that. But equally one could point to photos of a fully manned Js 35 heading off home c 11 Nov 18! The bottom line is that Jasta's were operating on average with 8 to 10 pilots in 1918. Moreover at the coal face of actual aerial combat they never wllingly engaged Allied formations on anything like equal terms without a numbers advantage. Good scientific fighting.

Now CE Bean the author of the exaustive volumes on Australian part in the land battle made an interesting comment. He always took pains to provide accounts from the German side ( Regimental histories, diaries of senior commanders etc) in regards actions involving the Australians, and he noted how often German accounts always played the 'outnumberred card' when ever they were driven from a position or if counter attacks failed - Bean wrily noting that in most instances that the German's were not actually outnumberred.

Alex Imrie in one of his publications provided some contemporary 'glossy' summaries of German air operations during the Michael Offensive which also play the 'outnumberred' card when the Jastas proved unable to combat the RFC's low bombing & straffing offensive. But in fact figures provided to HA Jones by the Reicharchive conclusively show that they were not outnumberred in the air over the 'Michael' battlefront but that in fact the odds were near even at 1 to 1. What I can say however is that the British pilots were flying quite twice the number of missions that the German were able to mount. Clearly fuel was a problem for the Germans.

I think if there is a chink in the German character, then it is the unwillingness to concede that they could be beaten by a better team on the day.

Crankcase

Thanks for translation! Actually Laserlloyd pointed me to this Babelfish which is great. Been testing it out with the JIHF copy of Udet's Combat Report for his 47th.

Cheers Russ

ManfredT · 6 November 2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Manfred

I'm sure we can find individual examples like that. But equally one could point to photos of a fully manned Js 35 heading off home c 11 Nov 18! The bottom line is that Jasta's were operating on average with 8 to 10 pilots in 1918. Moreover at the coal face of actual aerial combat they never wllingly engaged Allied formations on anything like equal terms without a numbers advantage. Good scientific fighting.

I think if there is a chink in the German character, then it is the unwillingness to concede that they could be beaten by a better team on the day.

Cheers Russ

Russ,

without documents you have no chance to differ enough between authorized strength and actual strength, 'paper' strength and photographs. I'm quite sure you had never heard about the battle strength of the famous Jasta 11 for the first week of May 1918, with only one pilot, before I published it here. (In 'Richthofens Circus' by Greg VanWyngarden you will find a hint.)

And for your sentence at the bottom:

Germany, in the centre of Europe, has had always a to much heterogenous population as to state a 'character' like you do. I am a revisionist. In my opinion it's absolutely necessary to search more documents and to proof history every day. Official history is always written by the mighty, with a bias to destroy the documents of the defeated. German documents were destroyed during 1944/45, when Great Britain initiated with the help of the USA a systematic action to liquidate the heart of old German towns with their city halls, archives, libraires and museums, all easy flammable due to construction. Good information here: "The Fire" by Jörg Friedrich and Allison Brown, Columbia University Press 2006. (Apropos firestorm: on 7th of September 1918 the city of Paris was the target of 20.000 Elektronbomben, a systematic firestorm was planned. Half an hour before the Gothas, Friedrichshafener, AEG's and Riesenflugzeuge were getting airborne the armageddon was stopped, like that against London. As we know today, it would have been worked.)

ManfredT

bristol scout · 6 November 2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Russ,

without documents you have no chance to differ enough between authorized strength and actual strength, 'paper' strength and photographs. I'm quite sure you had never heard about the battle strength of the famous Jasta 11 for the first week of May 1918, with only one pilot, before I published it here. (In 'Richthofens Circus' by Greg VanWyngarden you will find a hint.)

And for your sentence at the bottom:

Germany, in the centre of Europe, has had always a to much heterogenous population as to state a 'character' like you do. I am a revisionist. In my opinion it's absolutely necessary to search more documents and to proof history every day. Official history is always written by the mighty, with a bias to destroy the documents of the defeated. German documents were destroyed during 1944/45, when Great Britain initiated with the help of the USA a systematic action to liquidate the heart of old German towns with their city halls, archives, libraires and museums, all easy flammable due to construction. Good information here: "The Fire" by Jörg Friedrich and Allison Brown, Columbia University Press 2006. (Apropos firestorm: on 7th of September 1918 the city of Paris was the target of 20.000 Elektronbomben, a systematic firestorm was planned. Half an hour before the Gothas, Friedrichshafener, AEG's and Riesenflugzeuge were getting airborne the armageddon was stopped, like that against London. As we know today, it would have been worked.)

ManfredT

GREAT BRITAIN INITIATED!!!!!!!!! my dear man have you not heard of Coventry----rotterdam, Warsaw----oh dear! LONDON!!!

Germany --in it's second war of aggression in the twentieth century--you remember--the one that would result in around 60 million deaths across the board was bombed in retaliation---and I dare say there are a good few million Russian families alive today (who would have been murdered by S.S. and Wermacht troops---and a good few million JEWISH families alive today who would have been likewise exterminated---- because of that retaliatory bombing campaign which introduced a second front and drew massive resources ----not just (but of massive consequence on the Eastern front---we need just imagine what effect a few more thoudand 88's would have had on the outcome of say, KURSK) away from the Eastern front! The cost was high---but Germany NEVER counted the cost of casualties ---Why did it expect Britain and America to? The war was for the very survival of DEMOCRACY!!

You really are not at all balanced in your historical perspectives.

Dave.

ManfredT · 6 November 2009, 03:53 AM

Dave,

we knew about the Germans, but that the survival of democracy needs the actions of "Fire" is somewhat strange and only to understand as an excuse.

ManfredT

bristol scout · 6 November 2009, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Dave,

we knew about the Germans, but that the survival of democracy needs the actions of "Fire" is somewhat strange and only to understand as an excuse.

ManfredT

Manfred,
"we knew about the Germans"---very true! Everyone knew about the German way of waging war ---extreme and most callous ruthlessness.

If we admit---and I'm sure you would'nt disagree on this, at least---that the British and dominions--and America --were fighting against a war of aggression for the survival of freedom and of democracy itself---against a ruthless and wholly evil and implacable enemy who resorted to the most inhuman treatment of it's enemies (fighting or prostrate and defeated) AND of it's own people----then the biggest immorality that we could have inflicted on the world would have been to allow that evil to be victorious?

Fighting fire with fire is sometimes the only way.

"official history" is not alawys written by the mighty----the western democracies went to great pains to attempt to establish the truth with a hugely more impartial stance than would have taken place in a victorious post war Germany-----in both Wars! British 'historians' (i use the word loosely) like John Laffin with his 'butchers and bunglers' nonsense---or Alan Clark with his 'lions led by Donkeys' lies and claptrap would NEVER have been tolerated in a victorious post war NAZI Germany where criticism of the establishment would have been asking for a very unpleasant 'visit' from some chaps in jackboots!!

The freedoms we have here are, if you like, as a direct result of not letting tyrrany and totalitarianism win---and the cost was terrible.

We paid it!

In a post you made on 9th. October you wondered if this forum was "for serious research or fanciful history"---I think you are indulging in 'fanciful history' here!

Dave.

ManfredT · 6 November 2009, 05:31 AM

Dave,

I'm happy that the Germans doesn't burn Paris on 7th of September 1918 and London a few days later. No military need.

That Great Britain and the USA in 1944/45 burned systematically the heart of culture in Germany was war crime. No military need.

It must be said.

ManfredT

bristol scout · 6 November 2009, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Dave,

I'm happy that the Germans doesn't burn Paris on 7th of September 1918 and London a few days later. No military need.

That Great Britain and the USA in 1944/45 burned systematically the heart of culture in Germany was war crime. No military need.

It must be said.

ManfredT

Manfred,

It must not be 'said'----I am sorry that we are diametrically opposed on our understanding of history----but the basics of your "war crimes" is not only a gross distortion of the grim realities of fighting an evil and implacable monstrous tyrrany--it is also very dangerous to future generations.

The 'Paris gun' did'nt have many scruples in 1918---nor was humanity much in Germany's mind in Russia in 1941-45!

I note with some consternation that you have signally failed to 'agree' about the unmitigated evil of 1940-45!

As to German 'culture'---well two obvious points alone should suffice---1) Germany did'nt care tuppence for anyone else's culture---Coventry and London again........

And 2) Hitler was quite ready to destroy Germany itself ---which had failed in his maniacal estimation to deserve it's place ----and what was his reading of failure---because the German people had not been able to ethic cleanse to his satisfaction those parts of the civilised world he wanted.

I will sort of quote Churchill-

'What kind of people are they?-What kind of people do they think we are?

If I seem confrontational you ought not to be surprised. Is it personal? NO--in spite of your earlier attack I seek only not to mis-represent the true history of the GERMAN WARS! If this was a Napoleonic forum I would be arguing just as vigourously against another country and it's dreams of European hegemony (to begin with) If it was an ancient history forum I would be arguing against those other ethnic cleansers Alexander and Julius Ceasar.

And no one would accuse me of being a Francophobe for so arguing---or anti Northern Greek--or anti middle Italy! In just the same way I am not a Germanophobe (just before that old potato 'crops' up again)---I am debating the history of the early to mid 20th. century--and for myself trying to retain a balanced view of that.

Dave.
If this is 'off topic' it is you who took us there!

Dave.

ManfredT · 6 November 2009, 07:42 AM

Dave,

I am always interested in your input, but funny, that you suddenly discover 'off topic' when it comes to war crime of Great Britain. By the way, the 7th of September 1918 and the German decision for humanity is not 'off topic'. Do you know anything about the miltitary preparation of the 7th and the role of the Jastas they had to play? Some documents we have lost in Germany? What's your matter of research in the archives?

ManfredT

bristol scout · 6 November 2009, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtyshirt

Ah well.....there goes another promising thread up the Swanee.

Manfred, you might as well give up on this thread as it's filling up with smoke from the personal axes being ground.
We might get the information the thread originally started up about at a later date .. but this one has,. unfortunately, been hijacked.

Manfred,

the above was ---well, let's say pointed towards my having drawn the thread off topic---not true of course but there you go.....

My 'off topic' comment at the end was to remind everyone only of the fact that I had not gone off topic--but was merely, shall we say retaliating to a matter you yourself raised.

There is no "war crime of Great Britain" I utterly refute such an outrageous assertion---now and always.

And it would ill become Germany to claim such a thing--and of course it does'nt. But some posters here do---and claim and counter claim and twist and turn in the most childish of ways---to try to avoid the basic tenet that Germany waged aggressive war twice in the last century.

I feel (rightly or wrongly) you also are of this denial--or counter admission with anti-British talk---school.

People read these posts and go away with impressions from them--I will not, by ignoring false or prejudicial statements, be party to an incorrect reading of history.

As for 'the archives' I am not a 'researcher' in the sense (or of the calibre) that Russ or Graeme or many others are. My stance on the German air service in 1914-18 is well known---as is that of the French---and of the British. I have only entered this debate to counter accusations and falsehoods you have raised concerning the HISTORY of the first (and then second) German wars.

I have not criticised you personally (never said for instance that you were "hateful" or an "idiot") and take the assertions of others (and letters you have posted from others to confirm it) of your abilities---my 'problem' --if you like---is with your broader perceptions of Evil and what must be done to combat that evil.

Dave.