Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

[FOKKERJ]

Originally Posted by snowbird

in the photo of the young Herr Geiseler --Do I see a faint outline of an 'E' and just the vertical part remains to be an 'I'

or not ??

Tony

Hi Tony,

It sure looks like it.



Good eye!

Cheers, FOKKERJ

P.S. I thought it was a patch job at first.

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by GMU

I second that.

Not a question for voting on. We have no votes here.

[SCMc]

Stephen,

You are right. Scott pays for this site, and spends his time administering it. He has every right to administer it as he sees fit. I have not always agreed with his actions, but I have no doubt that his decisions are based on what he believes are best for the forum, so that we can continue to discuss WWI aviation, and learn from people of like interests around the globe.

The Aerodrome is not a democracy, we can not override Scott's decisions by majority rule, but I trust that we are free to respectfully express our opinions.

I also believe that Manfred Thiemeyer has a lot that he could contribute to The Aerodrome. In order to participate, he would have to lay aside past grievences he has with some members, and they must do the same. Bitterness is not conducive to the "serious research" that he wants. That requires presenting facts, especially ones that contradict the conventional wisdom, in a rational and coherent manner, without personal comments that detract from the argument. If Manfred could do this, I think the Aerodrome would be a better place if Scott would lift his ban and allow him to register under his own name. The decision, of course, is Scott's.

Steven C. McCarty

[StephenLawson]

Then let him open his own website.

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

I'm just grateful that MT provided this information and the marvelous photos of Herr Geiseler. Thanks very much.

I am also interested in learning more about the inaccuracy of the description given in "The War in the Air".:

"This group, which made its first sweep on the morning of the 30th, was promptly named by us 'Richthofen's Circus'"

I presume that MT is stating that this "sweep" was not actually made on 30 April? I would be very interested to learn more, as I am one of those writers who has repeated this (erroneous, as it turns out?) statement.

As for the statement in the same source that 'this group...was promptly named by us 'Richthofen's Circus'", I have serious doubts about that too. I have long searched for the first use of this term in various contemporary diaries and letters of RFC personnel, and I'm still looking. I would bet that this nickname was first given to the red Albatrosse of Jasta 11, perhaps in mid to late April 1917, and did not specifically refer to a 'massed group' of four Jasta, but rather to the somewhat nebulous RFC concept of "Richthofen's Squadron".

Again, thanks to MT and Hal Oele for this information.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hello Stephen:
I completely agree with you. The Forum would benefit Mr.Thiemeyer prescience and has much to offer. I don't believe the ban is still in force, and we all would welcome him.
Blue skies Stephen,
Dan-San

[FOKKERJ]

Hi Greg,

I agree. I've always taken it for granted that Jasta 11 was Richtofen's Flying Circus, regardless of any add-ons. I also have assumed that, depending on the time period, that most all EA single seat scouts are percieved as Albatros or Fokkers and that all brightly colored A/C are believed to be part of the Richthofen's Flying Circus. I can even see where the germans might consider it a circus with the frequent moves from town to town by train and or air and the brightly colored aircraft involved.

Again, I don't see this term as a bad thing. Of course some use it affectionately and others use it while cursing, even still.

Best Wishes, Jay

P.S. Of course I am usually sorry for taking anything for granted and then there is that dreadful word "assume" ("Ass-U-Me")!

P.S.S. I agree with Dan-San, even if he meant to address Steven and not Stephen. I think(?).

[GMU]

A.E Ferko “Richthofen” p23:

Curiously records state that also on the 30th a Geschwadwer (Wing) size sweep was mounted consisting of elements of Jastas 3, 4, 11, and 33………………….. Lt Baur, though there, failed to mention it in his KTB. Moreover, KTB notes of the four Jastas supposedly participating in the operation are also mute in that regard.

Again, going back to MT’s post, he referred to a statement with these four points:

a) The joint operation of Jastas 3,4,11 and 33
b) April 30, 1917
c) The term “Richthofen Circus”
d) The lineup photo.

So which is not correct?

The term flying circus was certainly coined later by the Allies.

However, was there a joint operation at all? Ifthere was one, was it on April 30th?

Does the lineup photo correspond to that event?

Jasta 11 and 4 were based at Roucourt, but were there other aircraft from other Jastas there for the photo?

I don’t know which part of the statement MT points out as incorrect.

George

[Chock]

Agreed. Anyone who can offer further insight into MVR and his comrades and the aerial conflict in WW1 will always be a welcome presence in my book, and the wider view that we all share a common interest should always rise above personalities if it can further our knowledge.

It's probably also worth noting with regard to another issue mentioned earlier in this thread, that although not everyone who contributes to online forums may be a professional historian in the monetary sense, I suspect that most amateur historians, are only amateur in that minor regard, and almost certainly every bit as committed to taking research very seriously indeed.

We'll probably never pin down the origins of colloquialisms and idioms such as eponymous Circus references, but anyone who can give it a good shot should be afforded the opportunity to do so, because when all is said and done, we're all after learning what we can.

Al

[GMU]

Originally Posted by Gregvan

I would bet that this nickname was first given to the red Albatrosse of Jasta 11, perhaps in mid to late April 1917, and did not specifically refer to a 'massed group' of four Jasta, but rather to the somewhat nebulous RFC concept of "Richthofen's Squadron".

I believe that on April 26, 1917, the Kaiser had ordered the unit to be officially called Jagdstaffel Richthofen. This was done so for some time, and reference to Jagdstaffel Richthofen must have been widely circulated in the media.
Surely the Allies had access to this media, and they referred to Richthofen’s Squadron as well. I agree with GvW that the nickname could have first been given to Jasta 11, and IMHO it appeared after April 26.