Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

[FOKKERJ]

Hi George,

I hope that I can clear this confusion up.

Originally Posted by GMU

A.E Ferko “Richthofen” p23:



Again, going back to MT’s post, he referred to a statement with these four points:

a) The joint operation of Jastas 3,4,11 and 33
b) April 30, 1917
c) The term “Richthofen Circus”
d) The lineup photo.

So which is not correct?

I believe that you can eliminate A, B, C, & D, but hang on to "B".

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

Hi folks,

another important information around the Richthofen discussion...

Hal



"The 30th of April was notable for a change in German air fighting tactics. The fighter flights attached to the Arras Corps at Douai (3rd, 4th, 11th, and 33rd) were combined to form one group which could, as occasion demanded, operate as a massed fighting formation. This group, which made its first sweep on the morning of the 30th, was promptly named by us 'Richthofen's Circus'..." WAR IN THE AIR Vol.III, page 368

With nearly every modern Richthofen book you will find this information and because this statement is from "The history of the part played in the war by British air forces" it's a bible, often quoted in conjunction with this famous photograph of Jasta 11 at Roucourt. But is this statement true?
No!

Originally Posted by GMU

The term flying circus was certainly coined later by the Allies.

However, was there a joint operation at all? If there was one, was it on April 30th?

Does the lineup photo correspond to that event?

Jasta 11 and 4 were based at Roucourt, but were there other aircraft from other Jastas there for the photo?

I don’t know which part of the statement MT points out as incorrect.

George

Take that saved "B" and apply it to the following.

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

In the seventies, i had the good fortune to tape an interview with an eyewitness:
Ltn. Heinz Geiseler was Jastapilot with the quoted Jasta 33 and he scored on this memorable 30th of April his first victory. Meanwhile his opponents survived as "zur Landung gezwungen" with their FE2d at 0845 near Oppy, his victory was no official. As a "Prussian Cadet", he was wounded as a 17 year old Leutnant, and leader of the 10.Kompanie, I.R.60.
On the attached photograph he is 19 years of age (April 1917)

Some people may be grateful that I don't post the map "Order of Battle", showing the airfields of the Jastas, Schustas and Fliegerabteilungen based around Douai in April 1917.

Yes, I'm in doubt to post here. Is the Aerodrome the right place for serious research or is fancyful history in demand, to win a community?
Is this the trouble with the Web?

Manfred Thiemeyer

If I have this right, MT is telling us that for one Ltn. Heinz Geiseler, a very monumental occassion happened on 30-4 1917:

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

Ltn. Heinz Geiseler was Jastapilot with the quoted Jasta 33 and he scored on this memorable 30th of April his first victory.

Along with debunking the "MYTH", this is what I have determined to be the facts that Manfred is choosing to share with us.

He also states that he has "the map "Order of Battle", showing the airfields of the Jastas, Schustas and Fliegerabteilungen based around Douai in April 1917."

Best Wishes, Jay

[GMU]

Hi Jay,

Thanks, but still confused.

The statement:

"The 30th of April was notable for a change in German air fighting tactics. The fighter flights attached to the Arras Corps at Douai (3rd, 4th, 11th, and 33rd) were combined to form one group which could, as occasion demanded, operate as a massed fighting formation. This group, which made its first sweep on the morning of the 30th, was promptly named by us 'Richthofen's Circus'..." WAR IN THE AIR Vol.III, page 368

With nearly every modern Richthofen book you will find this information and because this statement is from "The history of the part played in the war by British air forces" it's a bible, often quoted in conjunction with this famous photograph of Jasta 11 at Roucourt.

Manfred Thiemeyer's assertion:

But is this statement true? No!

I agree. Manfred Thiemeyer wrote that something big happened on the 30th.

However, what part of the statement is wrong?

I believe it is true that Jastas 3, 4, 11 and 33 cooperated on that date, April 30th. However, Ferko's statement is puzzling as he says that the KTB (war diaries) of the involved Jastas failed to mention this event.

I would think that the incorrect part of the statement is that the Jastas were combined into one group, meaning that they formally, or officially, operated as Geschwader as such. Let alone being called “Richthofen's Circus”. IMHO, they just coordinated operations, and operated from different airfields in the same sector.

But, what about the line up photo? I am not sure if Manfred Thiemeyer also refers as incorrect the statement of it being taken on such occasion.

George

[FOKKERJ]

Hi George,

I stand by what I have said about my comprehension of what Manfred has shared with us. Hopefully Manfred will enlighten us with any facts pertaining to these occasions that are in question. I believe that Herr Thiemeyer has long had access to documents and personnel that most of us could only dream about. That is why I believe that it is so important that we learn from both sides of this conflict, especially when so much that has been written has been from the English speaking side. We need and want the complete picture as much as is possible.

I understand any confusion concerning this Post as it took me a couple of hours for my first Post here after reading this Thread when it was new. At first I did not get Manfred's point. If I am right, he has explained it fairly simple and it is better to not read too much between the lines. If I am wrong, we will find out together.

Best Wishes, Jay

[FOKKERJ]

Hi George,

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

Hi folks,

another important information around the Richthofen discussion...

Hal



"The 30th of April was notable for a change in German air fighting tactics. The fighter flights attached to the Arras Corps at Douai (3rd, 4th, 11th, and 33rd) were combined to form one group which could, as occasion demanded, operate as a massed fighting formation. This group, which made its first sweep on the morning of the 30th, was promptly named by us 'Richthofen's Circus'..." WAR IN THE AIR Vol.III, page 368

This is a much quoted passage from a book that MT obviously disagrees with and that it should not be taken as the Gospel, as he clearly states in the following:

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

With nearly every modern Richthofen book you will find this information and because this statement is from "The history of the part played in the war by British air forces" it's a bible, often quoted in conjunction with this famous photograph of Jasta 11 at Roucourt. But is this statement true?
No!

"often quoted in conjunction with this famous photograph of Jasta 11 at Roucourt."

He is saying that this statement often accompanies this fotograf.
He also states that the above information is incorrect, false, NOT TRUE!

I think that he is very clear on his feelings regarding this matter.
As I have said, quite simply, don't read too much into what is not there.

Again, on 30-4-1917:

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

"Ltn. Heinz Geiseler was Jastapilot with the quoted Jasta 33 and he scored on this memorable 30th of April his first victory."

I hope that this better clears things up.

Best Wishes, Jay

[Hal Oele]

Hallo VtwinVince,

you are right with the Abzeichen.
Heinz Geiseler with Bücker Jungmann Bü 131 in 1978, after it was repainted.
The aircraft was originally build in 1938 and sold by C.C.Bücker (left) in 1973 with a Swiss registration.

greetings
MT & Hal

[Hal Oele]

Dear Mr. Abbott,

MT likes to answer your friendly words...
Unfortunately his ban is still active, and normally he can´t even read any threads without my help...

yours
Hal

Hello Dan San,

"I don't believe the ban is still in force, and we all would welcome him."
If your words are really honestly, it would be very kind gesture...

By the way, Heinz Geiseler stands beside his Jasta 33 Albatros...
What could you say about Geiselers first "victory", and the captured British crew?

Manfred Thiemeyer

[Laserlloyd]

Can we start petitioning the forum administrator for MT's re-reinstatement?

I for one am vary intrigued with his WWI knowledge and look forward in learning more from him.

You got my vote, reinstate Manfred Thiemeyer.......

Lloyd...

[GMU]

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

Can we start petitioning the forum administrator for MT's re-reinstatement?

I for one am vary intrigued with his WWI knowledge and look forward in learning more from him.

You got my vote, re-reinstatement Manfred Thiemeyer.......

Lloyd...

I second that.








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[Gregvan]

Hi Everyone,

Well, Hal and MT have asked, "What can you say about Geiseler's first 'victory' and the captured British crew?"

If this captured British crew were from an FE2d, and they were captured on 30 April in the morning: well, here goes: EDITED:

No. 57 Sqdn FE2d A1966 of No. 57 Sqdn shot down near Douai, Lt. CS Morice and Lt. F Lrathey left at 6 AM, the a/c wrecked but crew OK.

No. 57 Sqn FE2d A6352, crewed by 2Lt E D Jennings and 2Lt Lingard, both POW. They are generally credited to Lothar von Richthofen.

No 57 Sqdn FE2d A6380, severely shot up - Lt Ryan died of wounds and 2Lt. B Soutten was also wounded; they left at 9 AM for Lievin-Noreuil.

No. 57 Sqdn FE2d A6402, crewed by Lt. PT Bowers and 2Lt ST Wills, both POW. Was this von Tutschek's victory?

Henshaw's The Sky Their Battlefield states that the "sweep" of twenty fighters (sic?) from Douai in the morning variously met 57 Squadron FE2d's, escorted by 8 (Naval) Squadron Sopwith Triplanes, some Bristol fighters on reconnaissance, 56 Squadron SE5's and then a patrol of 18 Squadron FE2b's, who suffered casualties.

FE2b No. 6998 of No. 18 Squadron was on a photo reconnaissance escort, flown by Sgt. T. Whiteman and 2AM J H Wynne. The 18 Sqdn FE''s came into combat with single-seaters in the Baralle-Marquion area at 0930 British time. This FE was very badly shot up, with Whiteman wounded and Wynn later dying from his wounds; their undercarriage collapsed on landing and the aircraft crashed. However, it reportedly crashed on an advanced landing ground, I read nothing about the crew becoming prisoners. This has been equated with Han Klein's (Jasta 4) claim for an "FE A" near Ribecourt.

FE2b No. A5481 of No. 18 Squadron was also in combat with enemy aircraft; its fuel tank was shot up and it was forced to land near Monchy-au-Bois, and wrecked in a crash landing. The crew of 2Lt. S H Bell and Lt. D W McLeod were unharmed.

A 20 Squadron FE2d, No. A5143, was hot by anti-aircraft fire on return from a bombing flight; its controls were shot up and it was forced to land at Eykhoek, near Poperinghe, and overturned and burned. The crew of Lt. D Y Hay and 2AM E H Sayers were both injured.

There was another 20 Squadron crewman wounded that day, 1Lt. H M Coombs, but I have no more details.

This has been edited, thanks to GMU's intervention. See below.

Greg

[GMU]

The info I have from Bloody April .. Black September lists two FE2d whose crews were recorded as POWs on April 30, 1917:

1. FE2d A6352 , 57th Squadron , Jennings/Lingard

2. FE2d A6402, 57th Squadron, Bowers/Wills

The book also mentions Geiseler's morning encounter with FE2d (A1966 57th Squadron) over Oppy, but said that its crew, Morice & Leathley crash landed inside their lines, and were unharmed.

So, this is wrong?

George

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