Birth of the Richthofen Circus?

MikkoH · 13 October 2009, 03:43 PM

Herzlich willkommen zuruck Herr Thiemeyer. I'm just a humble listener and learn new things everyday. I think you have so much to give to rest of us.

Cheers Mikko

tcrean7828 · 13 October 2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Hi all,

I'm not used with computers, so it last a little bit to login.
Thank you, Scott Hamilton.
And thanks to all friends, especially to FOKKERJ.
It's late in the evening here - see you later.

ManfredT

Mate,
Welcome to the flagship of the Aerodrome - where the greatest minds on the planet get together and talk about their favorite subject - WW1.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

P.S.

Werner Voss fan here.

FOKKERJ · 13 October 2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMU

Welcome back Herr Thiemeyer!

My dear friend, Jay:

Yes. it was certainly special for H Geiseler. However, I begin to wonder if the coordinated sweep really took place.

If Ferko is right, then why the KTB of these Jastas failed to mention this relevant event?

Who commanded such an important event in German Air history; the first Geschwader?

I think the Jastas did coordinate.This was logical for Jastas operating in the same sector, but they didn't formally operate as a single Geschwader as such.

IMHO

George

My dear friend George,

I don't know what Ferko wrote, did he write: "WAR IN THE AIR Vol.III"?
If Ferko is wrong, then it did not happen when he claims that it happened.

I also agree with you that "Jastas did coordinate" operations.
I do believe that there were Jagdgeschwader co-operations.
I do imagine that MvR led the first Jagdgeshwader operation, but I really don't know for sure.

I also believe that ManfredT is honestly showing us the truth and through our patience and thoughtful questions/comments that he will hopefully show us the facts to back up his assertions that these formally held beliefs are indeed Myths. Some of my best Teachers did not just hand me the answers, rather they made me think, try to find answers, and to ask questions as necessary.
They made me work for this knowledge.

I believe that many memorable events happened to so many people on the 30th of April, 1917, but I don't think that "The 30th of April was notable for a change in German air fighting tactics. The fighter flights attached to the Arras Corps at Douai (3rd, 4th, 11th, and 33rd) were combined to form one group which could, as occasion demanded, operate as a massed fighting formation. This group, which made its first sweep on the morning of the 30th, was promptly named by us 'Richthofen's Circus'..." was one of them as Manfred has never given me a reason to not trust his research.

I hope that there is a fruitful conclusion to this so that we may learn more.

Best Wishes, Jay

P.S. I do not wish to belittle any Author here, because I know what a monumental task it must be to research a work for publication. Some of our most respected Member/Authors here have said that no matter how much they research their findings, it is not until after the publication of their work that some errors, new fotografs, or new information comes to light, sometimes immediately!
As my Father taught me: "Nobody is perfect!".

Laserlloyd · 13 October 2009, 10:00 PM

Welcome back Manfred, I'm glad to see that you could join us here.

As you have one post under you belt now you need to get up to 10 posts before you can place a link or photo in you post.

Prost...

Lloyd...

Hal Oele · 14 October 2009, 03:20 AM

Hi folks,

as the "dynamic-duo" in the past, we like to post also in the future as a team...

So we like to show you now the requested map of the airfields near Douai,
feel free to discuss it...

Tschüss
Hal

Hi all,

Jasta 11 left "Douai" airfield on 14th of April 1917 for Roucourt.
For the German Luftstreitkräfte the huge area of "Douai" airfield was known for different adresses:
the southern part was La Brayelle (J.St.11, J.St.4),
the northern part was Petit Cuincy and Cuincy (Fl.A.233, Sch.St.7).

Also in existence was Polygon Dorignies, an airfield north of Douai (Fl.A.288, Sch.St.4, Fl.A.268).

The clipping of the map shows the situation from 31th of March until 14th of April 1917, when Jasta 11 left for Roucourt. Interesting that the map try to give the shape of the airfield, for Petit Cuincy and Cuincy a diminished one of "Douai" airfield.

Manfred Thiemeyer

GMU · 14 October 2009, 01:50 PM

Hal & Manfred,

You work great as a team. Thanks for posting this valuable piece of information.

Several things come to mind:

It confirms that Jastas 4 &11 were at La Brayelle, and not on any other field between March 31 and April 14, 1917. Look at the aerial photo of la Brayelle, and it shows very different geographical features from Roucourt.

Was the other shaded rectangle to the south of Dorignies an aerodrome? Where was it located?

Was there any reason for the distorted proportion of the airfields, or was it just an error?

I have the following question in relation to the formation of a Jagdgeschwader:

What were the criteria, if any, to choose the Jastas that formed a Jagdgeschwader? For example, take Jagd. I. Jastas 4 and 11 had been working together for some time, so I think it was natural to keep them working together, but what about the other two?

Is the following information regarding the location of following Jastas on April 30th, 1917 correct?

Jasta 11 and 4 at Roucourt
Jasta 3 at Guesnain
Jasta 33 at Villers-au-Tertre

Thanks

FOKKERJ · 14 October 2009, 05:58 PM

Greetings Hal and Manfred,

My question is simple and probably can be answered by others.

We have

Petit Cuincy and Cuincy (Fl.A.(A.)233, Sch.St.7).

La Brayelle (J.St.11, J.St.4).

Polygon Dorignies (Fl.A.(A.) 288, Sch.St.4, Fl.A.(A.) 268).

I know that this will be a silly question for some of you.
Are my interpretations of the following abreviations correct?

Fl.A.(A.) = Flieger Abteilung (A.)

Sch.St. = Schule Staffel

J.St. = Jagd Staffel

What does the (A.) after Fl.A. mean?
Deutsch/English.

Does the (A.) have to do with Artillery Spotting/Reconnasance?

Also, what does the I.B. R. stand for?
I believe that I.R. is for Imperial Regiment, but need to be further educated.

I would appreciate helping bring me up to speed on these questions.

Thanks for your patience.
Also, Thank You for sharing this Airfield Location Map.
I never knew that the Flieger Schule were so close to the operational Jasta.
That is interesting and makes a lot of sense, as a lot more can be learned by all.

Best Wishes, Jay

P.S. This reminds me of a very well known published fotograf of Jasta 12 at Douai that is labled "Jasta 11 at Douai".
It would make a good comparison to many of the other recently viewed fotografs.

josef scott · 14 October 2009, 09:56 PM

Jay,

Although this is Dan-San's field, "Sch.St." stands for "Schutz Staffel", protection for the "(Artillerie)" flights.

A quick perusal of "Schlachtflieger" confirms the presence of these Schustas in the spring of 1917.

FOKKERJ · 14 October 2009, 11:36 PM

Thanks Josef,

I said some might be silly.... Atleast I still have a very fertile mind.

Ya, I don't know why I didn't think of Schasta or Schusta, never heard of Schutz (or much).

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOKKERJ

I never knew that the Flieger Schule were so close to the operational Jasta.
That is interesting and makes a lot of sense, as a lot more can be learned by all.

I still think that a lot could have been learned by all.
In my experience, some "Trainees" make good target practice!

Best Wishes, Jay

Immo_Frese · 15 October 2009, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOKKERJ

Greetings Hal and Manfred,

My question is simple and probably can be answered by others.

...
Also, what does the I.B. R. stand for?
I believe that I.R. is for Imperial Regiment, but need to be further educated.

I would appreciate helping bring me up to speed on these questions.
...

Hello Jay,

I.B.R. is the abbreviation for 1. bayerische Reserve-Division. This Division was part of Gruppe Vimy during the battle of Arras.

Immo