Elektronbombe

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Hallo Dave,

don't speak of "bombing Paris". See it the way the Allies have done with Germany in 1944/45, without any scruple: burning the heart of the cities, the precious culture. (They must have read the documents in front of me: the 'Feuersturm' works.)

I'm always amused if you are speaking about the huns, and to be tempted to illustrate your view with the posters and illustrations of the Entente, incitement of the people.

ManfredT

PS Do you remember of 22th June 1916? During a bomb raid against the German City of Karlsruhe 117 people were killed, among them 85 children in a circus tent.

Manfred---I really wonder if you are mixing me up with someone else!!

I seldom use the word 'Hun' (though I have absolutely no problem with it---at least any more so than--say, 'entente' or 'business partners' )

I never 'illustrate any view with posters to incite-----a) i'm not able to post pictures and b) as I am always at great pains to point out I am not a Germanophobe and have no interest in incitement----nor have I any interest in mythology either...

And yet again you have introduced W.W.2 into the discussion---and no doubt, yet again certain posters here will choose to forget that FACT and blame me for so doing!!!!!!

There was, Manfred a night---in September 1940--when 'Bomber' Harris called Portal up to the air ministry roof to see " St. Pauls standing out in the midst of an ocean of fire--an incredible sight"

Now I am prepared to be debate (with anyone) the bombing campaigns of all the belligerants in W.W.2------But i really wonder why you keep coming back to it?

There were 20 Zepplin raids on Britain in 1915---born out of anger with the blockade, frustration with the impotence of the High Se'a fleet and annoyance with the efforts of the R.N.A.S.---the years casualties in British civilians amounted to 188 killed, 499 wounded. Add to that another 498 civilian and 58 military with 1,236 injured during 1916----you will realise that awful word 'retaliation' rears it's head and it is mendacious indeed to focus on just one side's activities. This was a war forced on Britain and Europe ---we forget that essential truth at our peril.

Dave.

[crankcase]

Originally Posted by ManfredT

...
The original German text of Ludendorff:
...
„...Die zu erwartenden großen Zerstörungen hätten auf den Gesamtverlauf des Krieges keinen Einfluß mehr gehabt; Zerstörungen als Selbstzweck wurden nie geduldet...“

"The expected large destruction would not have had any more influence on the course of the war; destruction for its own sake [i.e. as an end in itself] was never tolerated."

This sentence by Ludendorff, if I interpet it correctly, is noteworthy as it conveys rational and ethical content; it stands in contrast to the fanaticism and vindictiveness of Hitler who was ready to burn everything (incl. German infrastructure) at the end of the war.
marc

[ManfredT]

Bucky,

the moral of the German soldiers could stabilized and the Entente for a moment irretated, so that they were more willing in peace talks. Such a peace could have avoid the Treaty of Versailles (and the Nazis?). I think the Germans fear the USA with their resources of magnesium, the Baby bomb was more based on thermite. What I've seen in Cardington, near 'Yellow Sun', looks more like the German Elektronbombe.

ManfredT

PS I like Paris and London as they are.

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Bucky,

the moral of the German soldiers could stabilized and the Entente for a moment irretated, so that they were more willing in peace talks. Such a peace could have avoid the Treaty of Versailles (and the Nazis?). I think the Germans fear the USA with their resources of magnesium, the Baby bomb was more based on thermite. What I've seen in Cardington, near 'Yellow Sun', looks more like the German Elektronbombe.

ManfredT

PS I like Paris and London as they are.

Let us for a moment look at another 'surrender document'

The 'treaty' of Brest-Litovsk.

The Bolshevik Government had come to power in 1917 with the slogan 'Down with the war'--now it fulfilled it's pledge to the Russian people--to their cost! By the terms of the 'treaty'
"Russia lost a territory (301,000square miles) nearly as large as Austria Hungary and Turkey combined;Fifty six million inhabitants, or 32% of the whole population of the country; a third of her railway mileages; 73% of her total iron and 89% of her total coal production; and over 5,000 factories,mills, distillaries and refineries. By a supplementary agreement signed in August she paid to Germany an indemnity of 6,000,000,000 marks"
Sir John wheeler-Bennett-'Hindenburg-The wooden titan'

A Bolshevik delegate understandably, one might feel, G.I. Sokolnikov called it a " peace which Russia, Grinding It's Teeth, is forced to accept"

To make sure everyone understood how Germany interpreted victory in war, the demonstration was repeated with the 'treaty' of Bucharest with defeated Romania on 7th.May---The German high command actually found this rather dissapointing as---
"The Dobrudja question was left unsettled...Constanta did not become a German port as the O.H.L. wished, but became a free port, although the distinction between the two was SOMEWHAT ACEDMIC. Germany was able to make a profit of about Two and a half BILLION marks by insisting that money to cover the new currency (the German lei)-be deposited in Berlin Germans had the right of veto over EVERY romanian ministry, and control over railways, telegraph and post. Romanian oilfields were to be controlled by a consortium of the '3-D' banks. All surplus agricultural produce was was to be delivered to the central powers. Up until the very last moment the O.H.L. tried to 'torpedo' the negotiations on the grounds that this 'peace' was too weak"
Martin Kitchen 'A Military History Of Germany' 1975

Those two Draconian 'treaties' Show what this war was all about---and put, for those with eyes to see it, the Versailles treaty into proper perspective.

Dave.

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by ManfredT

I think the Germans fear the USA with their resources of magnesium

Only the USA? I think the German's feared the combined aerial might of Britain, France, America and Italy, otherwise known as the Inter-Allied Independent Air Force. Formed on 26th October 1918.

The prospect of a continuous bombardment that would've dwarfed anything the Germans could throw at London or Paris, must've made the German High Command shudder.

Originally Posted by ManfredT

PS I like Paris and London as they are.

Well, as a Londoner, I'm sure I would have preferred my city as it looked before 1915 and 1940, but I understand what you mean.

Regards.

Bucky

[crankcase]

Originally Posted by bristol scout

...
Germans had the right of veto over EVERY romanian ministry, and control over railways, telegraph and post. Romanian oilfields were to be controlled by a consortium of the '3-D' banks. All surplus agricultural produce was was to be delivered to the central powers.
...
Dave.

Dave
I think many Romanians today would wish the Germans were running things (with all the incompetence and corruption around)!

Seriously, thanks for the interesting examples mentioned (Brest-Litovsk and Bucharest). The terms dictated in those treaties make the word "harsh" seem to be almost an understatement!
marc
p.s. Actually, it is the IMF that is now dictating the terms of financial assistance to Romania as the country struggles through government paralysis and growing deficits.

[ManfredT]

Bucky,

and I would prefer, as Minderner, the look of my hometown before 28th of March 1945, when I was nearly burned as a little boy by Allied phosphor.

ManfredT

[Chock]

Originally Posted by ManfredT

Bucky,

the moral of the German soldiers could stabilized and the Entente for a moment irretated, so that they were more willing in peace talks. Such a peace could have avoid the Treaty of Versailles (and the Nazis?).

ManfredT

I'm not so sure the guys at the sharp end of the fighting in 1918 could have been quite so easily stabilised in their complaints. Most of them were well aware that the Independent Force were dropping bombs on German towns well behind the lines with increasing ferocity, and would also have been aware of the quite open grumblings in the German press about it, and no doubt from their relatives back home too. Things were no less grim there than they were in the trenches, and were starting to tell on the supplies the Germans could muster with practically round the clock bombing on important rail junctions being just one of the things the Germans had to deal with.

Matters were set to get a lot worse too, with the Yanks turning up in droves and fresh for a fight, the arrival of which was part of a plan that the Independent Force should become a massive pan-national entente aerial armada set to rain unprecedented terror on Germany in what was widely projected to be a continuation of matters well into 1919 and beyond.

The last gasp gains the Germans made on potentially taking Paris in WW1 would only have made such an aerial bombing campaign worse in the end, and you can bet the guys in the trenches had an inkling that such would be the case, which would have had them dropping their rifles and stringing up their commanders faster than you can say noose.

Let's not forget too, that the 14-18 war was the one in which Adolf Hitler served (and bravely too by all accounts). At the start, like most Germans he was very much the model soldier and fully behind the aims of the country, but by 1918 he had a rather different outlook. He is of course an extreme example of a German WW1 soldier's changed attitude, but can be seen as a microcosm of what many in his position would have felt with regard to the way things were being run. I suspect it would have taken rather a bit more than a cheery visit from a couple of generals to make the average German infantryman ready for more of the same horror both at home and at the front.

But then again, if they'd have kept going, maybe Hitler would have copped a bit more than a 'Blighty', so that's an interesting one with regard to speculating on whether Nazism would have emerged. I suspect it probably would have, but there's no real way to know of course.

Al

[Steve Suddaby]

Gentlemen, I've stumbled upon this thread belately. This is a topic that interests me greatly and is part of a larger theme that I've spoken on at seminars of The Great War Society and the League of WWI Aviation Historians. (I'm working now on an article on this for OtF.) I've entitled my presentations "Unfulfilled Nightmares of WWI Aerial Bombing". These are things that people conceived of doing with aerial bombardment in WWI but did not accomplish (at least during WWI) -- including bombing New York with Zeppelins, killing the Kaiser from the air, bombing Berlin, and the firestorms that you've been discussing.

So I'm interested in sources on this fascinating topic. Months ago I bought Ludendorff's memoirs specifically because of the one paragraph that you've been discussing. Bucky, you in particular seem to have sources that I have not seen -- would you be kind enough to list them here, please, so I can find them?

In return, I'll list here from my annotated bibliography what I've found on this topic:

Martin Easdown, A Glint in the Sky, Barnsley, S. Yorks, Pen & Sword Military Books, 2004, p.148. German planes with Elektron bombs were half an hour from taking off for England on 5 or 6 August 1918 when the raid was cancelled.

Imrie, Alex, German Bombers of World War One, Arms and Armour Press, 1990. Photo #3 is of Carbonit bombs and has two early incendiary bombs, 5 and 10 kg. Photo #63 is of Elektron bombs on a Gotha. Caption says they were 14 inches long and 2 inches in diameter; a Gotha carried 500. Could not be put out with water. Made of compressed thermite and had 3 straight fins terminating in a circular ring – were nearly identical to those used by Luftwaffe in WWII. Attacks on London & Paris first planned in March 1918. (There are no page numbers.)

Fredette, Raymond H., The Sky on Fire: The First Battle of Britain 1917-1918, Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC, 1991. Pages 171-2: By August 1918, German factories were producing Elektron bombs in quantity. Made of magnesium, burned 2000 to 3000 degrees F. Water could not put it out – only added to the intensity of the blaze. Raids on London & Paris planned for summer. Englandgeschwader would attack London, 3 others would attack Paris that same night. Would go every day as long as they could. “The Allied capitals escaped this ordeal only because of the shifting tide of battle at the front… The fire raids would only boomerang when it became necessary to negotiate for an armistice.” Quoting Ludendorff: “Our position was now so serious that General Headquarters could not hope that air-raids on London and Paris would force the enemy to make peace. Permission was therefore refused for the use of a particularly effective incendiary bomb, expressly designed for attacks on the two capitals…” Says the message to stand down was received at Ghent less than an hour before takeoff. For one squadron going to Paris, the crews were already in their cockpits and about to start their engines when the order came. Page 217: As Germans retreated in the face of the Allied advance, they dumped their unused Elektron bombs into the River Schelde.

Fredette, Capt. Raymond H., “Bombers of the Black Cross”, The Air Power Historian, Vol.7, No.3, July 1960, pp.165-177, and Vol. 7, No.4, October 1960, pp.205-215. Overview of German bombardment aviation in WWI. Describes simultaneous fire-bombing plans against London and Paris, pp.213-4.

Martel, Suddaby, & Suddaby, "French Strategic and Tactical Bombardment Forces of WWI," Scarecrow Press, 2007, The Scarecrow Press, Inc.: Welcome . p.303 says Germans manufactured large quantity of Elektron bombs to burn Paris. On page 311, Martel describes the German plans: “Paris was to have been the target of a special attack by incendiary bombs. That operation was reserved for the 1st Bombardment Escadre, located at the Épreux airfield and specially reinforced by the best crews from other formations.. Each plane would carry 400 Elektron bombs. It was anticipated that a quarter or a third of our capital would go up in flames.
The departure, which was to have taken place in the last days of September—and explains the cessation of ordinary raids on Paris—was put off the first time, weather conditions being unfavorable. When the weather improved, their Headquarters forbade the expedition. The war was lost, and it seemed useless to exasperate the victor.”

Poirier, Jules, Les Bombardements de Paris (1914-1918), Payot, Paris, 1930, p.91. Describes Elektron bombs – 1 kg magnesium bombs that can burn a quarter hour.


I'd appreciate any additional sources anyone can suggest. In a later posting, I'll give some comments on the Independent Force's bombing of Germany based on my research for my 2003 OtF article.

--Steve

[Southside Bucky]

Hi Steve.

Get yourself a copy of 'First Blitz' The Secret German Plan to Raze London to the Ground in 1918, by Neil Hanson.

A great book by any standard, but worth having for the bibliography alone...35 pages!

Hope that helps.

Bucky