Elektronbombe

[Steve Suddaby]

That DOES help, Bucky! Thank you!

I've heard of that book but hadn't gotten it yet -- I had trouble with the website and never got back to try again. Clearly it's worth another attempt.

--Steve

[Steve Suddaby]

My view of the Independent Force is different from yours, Bucky. I think they were more of a nuisance than a threat to the Germans, primarily because they had not grown to be a large force by the time the war ended.

This view comes from my statistical analysis of the casualties and property damage caused by the IF. I spent about 7 years putting together the data on the bomb raids (what happened in the air) with the data from the American Bombing Survey (what happened on the ground). I published my study in the Fall 2003 OtF (Vol. 18, No. 3). They conducted a lot of raids -- over 700 against distinct targets -- but they didn't cause that many casualties or that much property damage. I was able to match ground data from the bombing survey with 304 of the raids and of those, only 10 resulted in 14 or more people being (reported) killed. If you have my article available, you can see how the effectiveness of the IF compared to German Zeppelin and Gotha/Giant raids against England and Paris (pages 232-239). There are a lot of reasons for this that I discussed in the article (including the types of targets preferred by each air force), but the bottom line is that the IF was a growing force that was not yet big enough to sway German political or military decision-making by November 1918.

To compare the sizes of the aerial bombing efforts, you can see from my graphs that the IF dropped a much greater bomb tonnage than the Germans did against England, but both efforts were tiny compared to that of the French. For example, the IF dropped 31 tons of bombs from 1 to 15 July 1918 -- the same quantity dropped in one night by one French escadre. When we compare this to the bombs dropped in WWII, all of these efforts look really tiny. I think one insight into WWI bombing is that nobody really knew how much effort it would actually take to accomplish anything with aerial bombing. As each country conducted its bombing campaign, they must have thought that they were putting out a tremendous effort. They didn't realize, though, that their effort paled in comparison to what it would actually have required to bring a country, a populace, or even an industry or transportation system to its knees.

I'd appreciate hearing your (or anyone else's) thoughts on this issue. I've enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks again.

--Steve

[bristol scout]

Hi Steve,

I think that 'German military or political' should really be just military---there was not much that was political about Germany in those days. I also think the IAF effect must be ADDED to all the other effects by mid/late 1918 which was a diminution of morale and fighting ability.

The main effect of both German campaigns (Zepplin and Gotha) was morale attack and knee jerk (understandable) reaction to that. It 'sowed the wind' and if the 'whirlwind' was still a different war away--then that was down to time--not intent.

The Gotha raid of 13June was directly against London and was another 'terror' raid.
Kagohl 3's target was central London----72 bombs within a mile of Liverpool Street Station. 1 bomb on a school in Poplar killing 16 children and injuring 30 in an infant class!! 162 killed in total and 432 injured in the worst raid of the war!

The Government panicked and recalled two top notch scout squadrons from France---Trenchard was asked what countermeasures would be most efficacious, (he suggested the capture of the Belgian coast, linked to alarm over the Flanders 'U' boat flotillas-------Which would have a most baleful effect on the land campaign later in the year)

He also urged attacks on German aerodromes and added-
"Reprisals on open towns are repugnant to British ideas but we may be forced to adopt them. It would be worse than useless to do so, however, unless we are determined that once adopted they will be carried through to the end"

The 7th. July raid caused a deafening outcry in London--the Press talking about the apparent impunity of the Gothas and the public smashing and looting 'German' property.

More than any other reason it led to the creation of the Royal Air Force.

The Gotha attacks---and earlier Zepplin---were 'terror' attacks and as such paved the way for 'retaliatory' attacks by--what were for the time--powerful forces---and they instituted a 'learning curve' for anti-aircraft batteries and sound locators----to which can be added searchlights and balloon barrage when the night attacks came. All important experience for that war and the next.

As for the IAF---well mostly it lacked the aircraft for the job---the D.H.4 being an exception. It's speed and range being much better than the Gotha--but it's bomb load very small. The D.H.9, rushed into production, suffered from it's engine and was no improvement. The 'heavies'---the Handley Pages (0/100--0/400 and V1500---designed to attack Berlin in Retaliation---really arrived a bit too late, but were a potent force with respectable bomb loads.

The Independant Air Force --("Independant of what-God"?) asked a sarcastic French officer who had a point.
Wars are won by the integration of 'all arms' (of which Britain became the best exponent) but the IAF fought not only against doubtful equipment but the weather also which frequently ruled out long raids.

A German sums it up I think-
"The direct destructive effect of the enemy air raids did not correspond with the resources expended for this purpose. On the other hand, the indirect effect, namely of falling off production of war industries, and also the breaking down of the moral resistance of the nation, cannot be too seriously estimated"
'Major Grosskreutz'---quoted from 'White Heat' by John Terraine.

Dave.

[bristol scout]

A good book on the whole subject of Anti-Aircraft measures ---although I've not read it for a long time is Ivan Hoggs 'Anti-Aircraft-A History Of Air Defence' A good half dealing with W.W.1. I have not quoted from it, though I have it.

Dave.

[Steve Suddaby]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful answers, Dave. I had never heard the quote by Maj. Grosskreutz -- that's an interesting perspective.

I have a couple books by Ian V. Hogg on AAA, but not the one you mentioned. I'll have to look for that one.

I have actually walked the routes of several Zeppelin raids in London and Hull and have visited Warrington Crescent to see where the 1000 kg bomb fell. (If you've never been there, I recommend it -- it's staggering that you can still see plenty of evidence of it 91 years later!) When I get to England again I hope to see the site of a sound mirror and would like to visit Folkestone.

Thank you, Dave! --Steve

[ManfredT]

"..., and in February 1945 the ancient, largely wooden and previously unbombed city of Dresden was consumed by a firestorm that claimed 135,000 lives - more than twice as many as had been lost in Britain in all the German air-raids of the war. The seeds sown by the German Fire Plan of the Great War had grown into a whirlwind that engulfed its creators." Neil Hanson: First Blitz (2008), pg. 349.

I have never read a more cynical misinformation to trivialize Allied war crime like this quoting.

ManfredT

[Ginger.]

Originally Posted by ManfredT

"..., and in February 1945 the ancient, largely wooden and previously unbombed city of Dresden was consumed by a firestorm that claimed 135,000 lives - more than twice as many as had been lost in Britain in all the German air-raids of the war. The seeds sown by the German Fire Plan of the Great War had grown into a whirlwind that engulfed its creators." Neil Hanson: First Blitz (2008), pg. 349.

I have never read a more cynical misinformation to trivialize Allied war crime like this quoting.

ManfredT

And on the very same subject, I'll ask you to answer this one again Manny....

In the summer of 1940 if the Luftwaffe had got a thousand four engined heavy bombers each with a 22,000Ib payload, what would have happened to the towns and cities of Great Britain?

[bristol scout]

Is'nt it funny how that one was ignored Ginger....and is'nt it telling how Manfred is locked into this 'British War Crimes' thing--but of course we know he is not alone!--But you can bet your life that SOME here will accuse me of bringing W.W.2 into it!!!

I repeat---The biggest War Crime of all would have been to allow Nazi Germany to win----Is that not true Manfred?-----And as I have mentioned above---English schoolchildren were being murdered in their classrooms by German bombs before German schoolchildren -----why do you repeat pointless 'Germanic' slants Manfred---and why are you so hung up on these.

Someone less charitable than me might begin to think that every history book written in the English language should be scrapped--("cynical misinformation")-according to your----what shall I call it---philosophy....

Can you quote your references for that outrageous 'death toll' Manfred----understanding that we have already visited this matter here.....
Dave.

[bristol scout]

As an aside Manfred--I wonder if you are familiar with the word 'COVENTRATE'---it was a little 'catchy' word the Germans used to describe the fire bombing of Coventry---AND the cities to come to the same end.....must be in a 'German History Book' somewhere..

Dave

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by ManfredT

"..., and in February 1945 the ancient, largely wooden and previously unbombed city of Dresden was consumed by a firestorm that claimed 135,000 lives - more than twice as many as had been lost in Britain in all the German air-raids of the war. The seeds sown by the German Fire Plan of the Great War had grown into a whirlwind that engulfed its creators." Neil Hanson: First Blitz (2008), pg. 349.

I have never read a more cynical misinformation to trivialize Allied war crime like this quoting.

ManfredT

Hi Manfred.

In the chapter 'Ludendorff's Intervention', Hanson also states:

"...The British incendiaries that rained down on German cities in the Second World War - 650,000 of them on Dresden alone - were almost identical in chemical composition to the Elektron bombs that German scientists and engineers had invented, perfected and then manufactured in huge quantities in the spring and summer of 1918..."


I think this puts the paragraph you quoted into greater context. Not really "cynical misinformation" as you have it...More a tragic, ironic truth.

Regards.

Bucky