Bert Hall Hero or Heel

muff · 26 May 2002, 07:50 AM

Hello; Experts one and all. After reading the very interesting Pros and Cons. About

Billy Bishop. I thought I would give you a shot at a very interesting American Flyer and see what you come up with. Now no cheating, Your own Thoughts about Bert. not something someone else said. I think he may well be someone well worth study. lets hear what you think. Muff

26 May 2002, 02:03 PM

well from what i know and think of him i find him to be sum what of a outlaw in the Escadrille Lafayette but, his flying skills will make up for his arrogance and i think he had like a total of 5 kills when he left the Escadrille and had no info on him after that.anything else anybody wanna add??

The Legend

Tom_Cervo · 26 May 2002, 04:41 PM

The most serious charge I've read against him as a member of N.124 was that he was thought to have cheated at cards! However, given the backround of many of the early pilots--upper class college men, as opposed to Hall's rough and tumble upbringing, it may stem from resentment that he was a better poker player than they were. There may have been an element of snobbery; from accounts Hall did not seem to know his "place", and didn't stop from speaking his mind. He also had a scrape or two with the law after the war--there's a fine line in the oil business, one he managed to cross, and got caught doing so, unlike a lot of "respected" oil men.
As a pilot I've never read a word against him.
The more recent work on N.124 tends to balance out some of the early, prejudicial stuff written or sponsored by "keepers of the flame"--some of whom never served in the squadron. The most obnoxious case is that of Ray Bridgeman, marginalized and denegrated because someone didn't like his postwar politics, until James J. Hudson wrote a short, eulogistic article in AAHS. In fact Bridgeman ended his wartime service as the CO of the 22nd Aero, and led it bravely and effectively through the fall offensives--a career as distinguished as any members of the Escadrille Lafayette.

muff · 28 May 2002, 06:02 AM

The most wonderful book " Lafayette Escadrille Pilot Biographies" by Dennis Gordon contains the most complete story of Bert Hall. one thing you must consider, All Heros do not have to be Fine upstanding people, In Fact quite a few I have known, did in fact have feet of clay. and some were quite unlikeable. BUT some where at some time they did perform some heroic deed. In the Cross and Cockade Vol. 3, summer 1962. after some of the writer had been picking on Bert for a few issues. One of the fellows Quoted McKinley Cantor with a very interesting comment."Why did we all respect more the memory of the benevolent knight who died in battle -- the profound and kingly knight -- more than the memory of the truculent, self-seeking warrior? the memory -- or the legend ?. Both the Godly Knight and the cruel one wagered the same. they wagered hopefully that they would not need to lay their lives down, yet each took the same hazard in wagering, and one might fight as stoutly as the other, and each would be just as dead as the other when the end came. Bert Hall was sent to prison for a Gun scam , a illegal firearms importation into China. He went to McNeil Island Penitentiary in Washington state on Nov. 11, 1933.

Billy_Bishop · 28 May 2002, 10:04 AM

Just an FYI, Bert Hall apparently didn't have 5 victories. Or I should say, he had LESS than 5, assuming he had any at all. He does not appear on the list of aces here.

And I can't find him on any list of aces, anywhere.

Again, just an FYI.

VBR,

Al Lowe

muff · 28 May 2002, 12:37 PM

Hello; Al, At the start of this thread, I called Bert A very Interesting American Flyer. NO mention of Ace from me . The Score as recorded was three with the Lafayette Escadrille. and his Fourth with N.103, thats all. but they were ALL confirmed by the French when they were confirmed with a citation for Another Palm for his Croix de Guerre.for action on Nov. 26th 1916. Everyone who flew in that long ago war were Heros. but not all were Aces. So What?. Maybe that all Bert could find?. Bert did have one thing going for him . at the 4th of July 1928 dedication of the L/ E Monument near Paris Three Women showed up for the seat for Mrs Bert Hall Best Wishes. Muff

Billy_Bishop · 28 May 2002, 07:08 PM

Muff, I know you didn't say he was an ace, but someone else indicated that they thought he had 5 victories. I was just pointing out that he didn't.

i.e. "FYI" As it is, aces made up a very small percentage of all combat fliers. Like you said, "So What?" They're still heroes whether they shot down none, or 80.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Tom_Cervo · 29 May 2002, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Hello; Al, At the start of this thread, I called Bert A very Interesting American Flyer. NO mention of Ace from me . The Score as recorded was three with the Lafayette Escadrille. and his Fourth with N.103, thats all. but they were ALL confirmed by the French when they were confirmed with a citation for Another Palm for his Croix de Guerre.for action on Nov. 26th 1916. Everyone who flew in that long ago war were Heros. but not all were Aces. So What?. Maybe that all Bert could find?. Bert did have one thing going for him . at the 4th of July 1928 dedication of the L/ E Monument near Paris Three Women showed up for the seat for Mrs Bert Hall *Best Wishes. Muff

Four confirmed kills is more than most of N/S.124 could claim--most fighter pilots as well. They say after one kill you've earned your training costs back, two or more and you're a positive asset.
(Maybe those three wives were added to his score--after all, Bert flew for France!)

spad · 29 May 2002, 05:28 AM

Hall claimed other victories while serving on the Russian front in 1917. I don't know if any of these were confirmed. he does not appear to have been a pilot with SOP582 or N581 but was rather attached to the IRAS.

Billy_Bishop · 29 May 2002, 09:57 AM

Ok, I have to clarify something here. When "we" say "Bert Hall" are we referring to James Norman Hall?

If so, according to the USAF Historical research section, James Norman Hall has 3 confirmed claims while flying with the USAS. And, according to Fighter Aces of the USA, by Toliver and Constable, James Norman Hall has 6 victories. I would assume the other 3 came while he was flying for France. Thing is, there's NOTHING for a James Norman Hall here on the Aerodrome.

I have one other source I have to check.

TTFN,

Al