Not MvR again! But really: Donald+Carisella items

[aeropeasant]

Dear Aerodrome Forum pilots-

Great commentaries from the seasoned vets and the novices alike. Have enjoyed reading them for years, and finally made my first post yesterday.

The recent auctions on eBay show that the Charles Donald collection of Richthofen memorabilia has been dispersed. This indicates that the family did not desire to donate the collection for scholarly research to a university or museum but of course did the beneficial and lucrative thing. That said, it was rumored through years of commentary that the Donald collection had many never-before seen photos of Richthofen. I wonder might these photos ever surface in “Over the Front” or “Cross & Cockade” or even on the internet? (Some persons have indicated that photos existed in this archive of Fokker Dr.1 425/17 at its crash site pre-scavenged…)

My only real take on Charles Donald as historian was that he provided much of the photographic material used in the 1969 “Cross & Cockade” Richthofen slam-bang spectacular, plus some articles on collecting. But I am pleading ignorance. Did he contribute much to the study of MvR?

P.J. Carisella also built up an impressive Richthofen archive. Whatever became of it?

In Carisella’s first-edition hardcover printing of “Who Killed the Red Baron?” he posits a near-surreal account in a postscript detailing a visit to Bertangles cemetery in 1968 or 1969 and digging in the original burial site for Der Rittmeister in search of the metal plate affixed to a propeller-cross that the British made as a funerary placard. In this bizarre narrative, he describes recovering bones that he believed were Richthofen’s, stating that some witnesses of the 1925 exhumation reported seeing the German officials only taking the skull. This is just so weird, because the book ends right there. I know that mass-market paperback editions were printed in the 1970s. Was there any follow up to this? If the story is correct, were these bones later returned to the current Richthofen family plot?

The only Richthofen memorabilia artifact I’ve seen is the small swatch of fabric from 425/17 on display at the San Diego Aerospace museum. There’s still no treasure-trove showing up from the former Soviet Union…!

Those of you who know of the Donald and Carisella archives are encouraged to help me learn more. I donated a lot of WWI aero memorabilia to the San Diego Aerospace museum years ago – much of it from the estate of George Cooke, one of the founders of the U.S. “Cross & Cockade” journal. I was a young brat kid, and the family was generous in giving me things not sold as part of the collection. I never profited from it, but wanted those items accessible to others (dumb kid!) and over the years, with the items I’ve added on my own, I hope to make these available to others, too.

Apologies for the long post – I’m a college English teacher, and can’t help myself! Hope to get to fly my own red airplane this weekend if the weather in the Mid-Atlantic is good…!

Best regards,

-George

[Amy]

Hi George:

1) *Carisella's remarkable story. *A lot of folks won't discuss this because of the disgust surrounding it all. *However, it has been addressed here at the forum. *I tried searching for the thread(s), but came up nil. *Maybe someone else can cough up those thread links for you. *If you can't find the thread, shoot me an email.

2) *Richthofen's memorbilia goes to Russia. *This topic has been discussed at length here at the forum. *I'll keep poking around and maybe I can locate some of those threads.

3) Charles Donald. *Well, I started to write something, but this topic is best served in an email rather than a public forum.

Welcome to the Forum and kudos for your contribution to the San Diego Aerospace museum.

Cheers,
Amy

[aeropeasant]

Dear Amy-

Many thanks for your well-worded and tactful reply ... and I see that you obviously did quite well in English grammar and composition! I appreciate the response: your doing so let me know of some of the dynamics here and put a friendly touch on the forum. So thanks again!

I still plead ignorance on the subject’s subject matter (and in most areas of life!), but having read your instructive message, I realize I may have unwittingly picked a "hot-button" topic for one of my first Forum forays. Next time, more diligence in topic selection!

I will send a message to you via e-mail so that you can elucidate said points further.

For future Forum topics, I might post a few questions on Willy Coppens and Paul Bäumer, and maybe on Heurtaux, Madon, Bourjade, Henri Farre sometime along the way as well.

Best wishes,

-George

[Alan]

Welcome, George.

Hot Topics include, but not limited to:

Billy Bishop
Albert Ball versus Lothar von Richthofen
Who shot down the Red Baron
The color of Voss' cowl

and many, many more!

All I can say here, in all seriousness, is that the level of scholarship present on these boards is, IMHO, unparalleled anywhere on the internet.

Trust me, there are very knowledgeable people here....

Oh, and one more piece of advice.....the Off Topic area is better known as "Where Angels Fear To Tread" and/or "Here be Dragons"

Don't say I didn't warn you....

[aeropeasant]

Dear Alan-

I've read many of your posts over time. You are always helpful. Thanks for the great reply!

I like one of the post from that kid Bigglesworth the other day that asked who shot down MvR and Lufbery/Drew replied, “I personally think it was Lee Harvey Oswald Bölke from the grassy knoll.” That was pretty good.

As a WWI aeronerd, I've been reading about it since I got my first books as a kid that had Camels and Spads – then in grade school moved on to the Scholastic Gene Gurney book Aces book, and some really wacked-out things:

** I used to sneak and play around Jim and Zona Appleby's restaurant replicas in my late-teens -- full-time geek! I would pick up "Over the Front" at the hobby shop when I could afford it – flying lessons took priority. I have a piece that’s likely to be in the GWAA Times on this.

** In 1989, I drove from L.A. to San Diego to have a guy let me sit in his flat-motored Dr.1 replica at Palomar airport for ten minutes.

** Like many of you, I got a few of those NASM posters with the fabric swatches on them. What’s interesting now is that the guy who was the head of restoration of the WWI gallery at NASM is a pilot in my soaring club (he was also the head restoration guy on Enola Gay) and he told me some funny stories about how they came to cut the swatches for the posters.

What was cool about donating stuff to museums is they let you peek around the exhibits, and many good photos to be had that way.

You should have seen me in February this year when I climbed under rails and display cases at the WWI gallery at NASM to get unusual views of the D-VII … and appeared after snapping shots at the feet of some German tourists who kept turning back to look at me. What? As if they never saw an obsessive, near-maniacal WWI aeroenthusiast before?!

I’ve been visiting the Aerodrome since 1997, but only started posting this week. I see many of the people I know who are active in scholarship and in fabrication, and you are right – very solid, knowledgeable types. I'd say I have a good grasp – enough to answer the novice on the WWI aero subject (and much learned from people in this forum), but nowhere near the level of a Peter Kilduff or Alan Bennett or Alex Imrie or Norman Franks. But more than a Joe Schmoe ... yes, more than him,

You warned me and I hate to do it … but what was the color of Voss’ cowl?

I’m guessing Der Rittmesiter wearing silken pajamas under flight suit is also off topic?

Is Arch Whitehouse persona non grata in the Aerodrome...? ??? :-X

Enough of that. I will need the help of Aerodrome members when I continue my research on Coppens: I have a small archive with letters that I want to put into context. Haven’t looked at it in a while, but when I do I’ll post appropriate questions accordingly.

Best regards,

-George

[alex_revell]

On the subject of the Charles Donald collection. I know nothing about the man really, but I remember Bill Puglisi saying to me many years ago 'Alex, if all the pieces of Richthofen's triplane were put together they would cover a 747. You can order a piece from this guy. He just goes down into his cellar, cuts up a piece of old blind fabric and paints it red.'

[Baron_von_Tecumseh]

I have the bullet,that killed "The von",I
bought it on E-Bay for $10,000

its for sale,its a vickers