Barker's Snipe VC combat

[Russell Smith]

I am currently working on an idea for a depiction of William Barker's final (and very controversial) dogfight on Oct. 27, 1918. Its a touchy subject, riddled with large gaps of missing information, but I would like to see what my fellow forumites have to say

According to Wayne Ralph, author of "Barker VC", "the most likely units to have launched offensive patrols that morning were Jastas 2; 26; 27 and 36, all belonging to Jagdgeschwader III and/or Jastas 1; 57; 58; and 59, all belonging to Jagdgruppe 10." I've been in touch with Wayne and he credits his information to Stewart K. Taylor, former historian of the World War One Flyers Association. I haven't had an opportunity to speak with Mr. Taylor yet.

Ralph/Taylor list the German aviators KIA that day as Wattenburg, Mack and Scheffler. However, Norman Franks presents a different list:
1. Schaarschmidt - J9 (unlikely as the battle happened behind the German lines. this guy was taken prisoner so he obviously came down very close to or behind allied lines)
2. Liefoth - J19 (ditto)
3. Hinky - J44 WIA
4. Schlegel - J45 KIA
5. Schleffer - J81 KIA
I haven't checked the map yet to see where these guys went down in relation to Mormal Forest or location of these units in relation to the Forest.

Now, of course, we don't know if Barker actually downed any E/A during this engagement. He claimed to have, but many a fully concious pilot mistakenly thought they had brought down aircraft that they really didn't. In this situation Barker was in extreme pain and suffering from severe bloodloss, so his senses were undoubtedly dulled. It would have been understandable if he THOUGHT he had scored a victory.

Going back to the Ralph/Taylor of possible units in action, I did find that Ltn Neuehofen of J27 claimed a victory over an unknown type that day. The question is, was it unknown because he didn't recognize the type, or was it unknown because the records have been lost? No details are listed for this victory. Of course, the Snipe could have been mistaken for a Camel. There are plenty of German Camel claims from that day, but none from the above stated units. Of all the Camel claims listed for that day, I haven't yet taken the time to sit down with the map and see where all of those units were located in relation to Mormal Wood. The problem in this regard is that German pilots were rarely given credit for aircraft that came down on the allied side of the lines, so the question of a victory may be a mute point.

What I Have checked on the map are the locations of Beugnatre (201 Squadron), Lens (Jastas 2,27,26 &36), Castern (Jastas 1 & 59) and Chievres (57 & 58). None were very close to Mormal Wood. All, including Barker, were well away from their aerodromes. Barker, of course, was on his way back to St. Omer, but took a detour over the lines - a BIG detour, roughly 60 kilometers.

What it boils down to is that I am trying to figure out what unit it was that Barker likely tangled with. I know this subject has been heavily researched, so I don't expect to come across any ground breaking revelations, but based on what I have come across so far, I am interested to hear if anyone has any further information on this subject. Unfortunately most everything Wayne Ralph knows is already included in the book, so he didn't have any further information that he could offer.

Russ

[EdStevens]

The fight was witnessed by thousands in the trenches, so there should have been no lack of evidence assembled for the award. Do we know if this is another missing or empty evidence box in the VC files à la Bishop? If it still exists, there should have been multiple accounts from the ground as to how many German aircraft fell out of the fight and their fates, although not their identities. I would not necessarily rule out aircraft coming down on the Allied side as not qualifying; Barker made it and look at the shape HE was in!

[Russell Smith]

Details are sketchy in the eyewitness accounts of those on the ground as well, and none of the witnesses were close enough that they could provide descriptions of the German DVII's. According to the combat report (written by the CO of 201, not Barker) a majority of the combat took place above 12,000 feet. At that distance, even with field glasses, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish German Aircraft from Allied aircraft. To complicate the matter, the Snipe was a new type unfamiliar to most on the front.

Brig. Gen. Andrew McNaughton, who was in charge of a heavy artillery battery outside Valenciennes that morning, gave a detailed Homeric description of the event. The problem is, according Wayne Ralph, his position was almost 15 miles from the Mormal Forest, over which the fight took place, so whether or not he could really see what happened is in doubt. His description is of no use to me anyway, as it does not give details of the German aircraft.

Russ

Hi Russ,

You can probably rule out Lt. Max Kliefoth and Vfw. Karl Paul Schlegel as possible victims, as they were brought down at 1640hrs and 1540hrs respectively (Barker's fight started a little past 0800hrs British time). My source is ' TJWC'. In 'Above the Trenches', Barker's claims were all categorized as 'on fire', so I doubt that any of the aircraft would be recognizable after they crashed from a height of 12,000 ft, unless the pilot was able to extinguish the flames somehow.

In regards to Ltn. Erich Schaarschmidt of Jasta 9, the battle could have drifted toward allied lines, in which the German pilot my have attempted a forced landing in no- man's- land and taken prisoner there. Again, he would have had to extinguished the flames to have survived. I believe that knowing the times of these events are crucial if we are to develop any reasonable picture of which German units were involved that day.

I will do a little more digging into my sources later and let you know if I find anything else that my be relevant to your study.

regards

Dear AeroArt,
Since you are not one to shy away from controversy, here's one idea to ponder: why are you showing (only) Fokker D.7s in your work-in-progress?

The first four Jastas that you cited: 2 ("Boelcke"), 26, 27, & 36, were all issued with Siemens-Schuckert D.3s in the spring of 1918 (April & May). These were later returned to the factory for their rotaries had severe cooling problems. Rudolf Berthold, of JG.2, evaluated the D.3, saying that it was a first-class fighter, except for the engine problems: due to the insufficient cooling, the engines would seize after just 7 hours of use!

After this cooling problem was addressed, the Siemens was later returned to service, mostly in the form of the new D.4 (a small improvement in speed, a marked improvement on an already phenominal rate of climb). I cannot, however, say for certain if they were returned for use to the same Jastas that had tried them that spring...

So, is the idea of Barker encountering D.3s or D.4s entirely out of the question? For that matter, Barker was not specific as all that as to what aircraft he actually encountered, describing them as "Fokkers"-- and just as the Germans were unfamiliar with this new Sopwith type, Barker was unfamiliar with the German types that they flew on the Western front (having flown mostly on the Italian Front against the Austro-Hungarians). Would it be far-fetched to show Barker fighting off Fokker D.8s (E.5s)?

Besides, from Barker's own account, he never saw the plane that did get him from behind, while Barker was finishing off the 2-seater; in the resulting heat of combat, Barker was probably more intent on surviving then on identifying his attacker(s). Again, Barker only said they were "Fokkers"...

Can anyone verify that Barker "got" the 2-seater?

Lastly, for Ed Stevens-- and please, Ed, I'm not trying to put you "on the spot" here-- but we just don't know what the men in the trenches saw, or how they were able to identify an Allied aircraft 10,000 feet above their heads (although the day was noticeably clear). We do know that Barker obviously was in some sort of scrape, for there were bullet holes in his Snipe, and as he had his elbow shot off...

Which, ironically, probably contributed in great part to his untimely death in his fatal crash of 1930...

Respectfully submitted,
Captain Lewis

[Rick]

Originally posted by CaptainLewis@Nov 28 2003, 09:42 AM
[b]Rudolf Berthold, of Jasta Boelcke,

Really ?? R.

[Russell Smith]

Sorry Captain Lewis, I'm not ready to go that far yet. I don't try to be controversial, I just go with what the best evidence points to. I'll stick with the odds on this one and the odds tell me that his opponents, however many there were and whoever they were, were flying DVII's.

By the way, Rudy Berthold was in J4, J14, J18 and JGII, but not J2 (Jasta Boelke).

Russ

Hi Russ,

I don't want to add more to the already growing list of possible German units, but I would like to mention another German air wing that may have been involved in the fight that morning. The units of Jagdgeschwader IV (Jastas 23b, 32b, 34b and 35b) were stationed in and around Mons at this time, and there is reason to believe that they were airborne that morning, around that same time as Barker's infamous dogfight. Lt. Scheicher of Jasta 34b shot down a Camel flown by 2Lt. Chrichton of 70Sqn at 1000hrs (0900 British), who was taken prisoner. As far as I can tell, Mormal Forest is roughly 10 to 15 miles from were JGIV was stationed, and given the speed of WWI aircraft, it would only be approximately 5-10 minutes flying time to the area in question. If you need help on the colors of these units, asking Dan-San or Greg would be your best bet (although I could give you the basic unit colors).

Major W. S. Douglas of 84Sqn also shot down a Fokker 'biplane' over the forest that day, but details are lacking on the time of the victory. Maybe we can get some help from our British experts on this one. Captain Lewis may have something regarding the two-seater that Barker shot down before the dogfight started. You may have an easier time determining the colors of this aircraft, and from this your painting could depict the time frame just after the Rumpler is shot down and right before the Fokkers attacked. Just a thought if you come up empty handed regarding the Jastas. Another idea would be 'generic' Fokker D.VII's.

I will keep you posted on anything else I may find.

regards

[Russell Smith]

Thanks Wingedwarrior. Those are good leads. If memory serves correct (I don't have my books in front of me right now) someone, possibly Barker himself described the 2-seater as white. Unfortunately I already have my composition worked out and it doesn't include the 2-seater. I am focusing on the descending battle. I think that the generic markings might be the way to go. There are a few painting tricks I can use to "hide" the markings somewhat. It would be nice, though, to include markings that are fairly accurate.

Russ

[Soderbaum]

Hi

The problem in this regard is that German pilots were rarely given credit for aircraft that came down on the allied side of the lines, so the question of a victory may be a mute point.

The majority of German victories actually came down within allied hold lines during the War...

If any German aircrafts were lost in this combat, they ought to thousands and thousands of witnesses, especially on the German side as they were sitting on the first row...!

Wingedwarrior are correct that also aircraft from the 2nd German Army very well could have been involved in combats in this area, for example Jasta 5 shot down a bunch of allied aircraft in single combat on 4 Nov 1918 over Mormal wood...

I have the daily AOK2 reports for this day but unfortunate not the AOK17. These daily reports actually often gives rather good reports on victories and losses....!
It is a very good chance that the AOK17 reports are stored in the National Archive in Washington since over 80 Years as the American copied a huge lot of this kinds of reports during the 1920s, despite that their focus were on the French-American sector...

h34r:
Gunnar