Arch Whitehouse- Red Baron.

[Stephan]

Whitehouse was in one of the 2-seaters that was credited to the Baron. He claims that his machine was hit by flak & this is what brought it down. Well maybe so? But how would Richthofen been able to know that? Also I wonder if it ever ocurred to Arch that if this had not happened, the Baron would most assuredly continued the pursuit until the machine went down. In other words, the flak may have saved Arche's life. Arch Whitehouse wrote quite a bit about WW1 combat. he shot down at least 16 machines as gunner on a 2 seater. does anyone know of a book that gives his complete career story? Stephan.

[Rick]

Originally posted by Stephan@Jan 10 2004, 07:56 PM
[b] Does anyone know of a book that gives his complete career story? Stephan.

Tee-Hee. R.

[Stephan]

Tee-hee-hee S.

Many years ago I wrote to Whitehouse and ask for a listing of his victories, his response was that all he knew was that when he departed the squadrorn the adjudant made a notation on his service record that he had downed ---- aircraft.

In my opinion his writing was very interesting, but his facts were somewhat far fetched.


Bill

[Barrett]

"One morning in the spring of 1917 I inaugurated the aerial dogfight..."

So begins one of AW's fairy tales. Which is too bad: he was there and did some interesting things but possessed barely a nodding acquaintance with the truth. Unfortunately, lots of folks believe what they read, which is why charlatans like AW remained in print for so long.

[Stephan]

Thanks for replies. Yes I felt he was obviously biased, but willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as he did fly in the war. 16 e/a is fairly impressive, but if it's unverifiable, then pointless to speculate about. Thanks again. Stephan.

[Gregvan]

Stephan,

As Bill says, Whitehouse is very interesting, but few historians count him as an accurate research source any more. Yes, he was there, and he really DID fly as a gunner in FE's over the lines. After the war he became a noted writer of aviation fiction in the pulp magazines of the 1920's and 30's. When he tried to be a 'serious historian' in the late 50's and 60's, I think he was still using the journalistic standards of the pulp era. Of course, most of the historians of that day - Quentin Reynolds and William E. Barrett (no relation to OUR Barrett !) - wrote to the same level of accuracy. They wrote very well, and they got a lot of us old-timers started.

As for Whitehouse having been shot down by MvR, it has been shown that he wasn't. He claimed he was MvR's 42nd "victim" on 13 April 1917, then goes on to try to show how the "Baron" never actually shot him down. Well, he didn't ! MvR's 42nd victory was actually (according to Franks, Giblin and McCrery) FE2b No A831 of No. 11 Squadron, crewed by Sgt Cunniffe and 2/A M W J Batten.

Ironically, in their own books 'Billy' Bishop and Harold E. Hartney (in "Up and At 'Em") both claim that they, too, had encountered von Richthofen (Hartney stating he encountered MvR on 14 Feb 1917) and both have pretty basically been proven to have been-er-mistaken. The one Great Ace who seems to have really met MvR in combat - McCudden - described the fight in his book but did not know it was Richthofen. Of course, at the time (27 December 1916) von Richthofen was an up-and-comer in Jasta Boelcke who scored his 15th victory that day, but the young McCudden (and other Allied airmen) certainly would not have been familiar with his name at that date.

Greg

[Stephan]

Yes I've read Mcudden's book. Also have an old book from the 20's that has Bishop's recollection of his encounter with the Baron. Can you direct me to additional data regarding his misidentification of the Baron?

[Gregvan]

Dear Stephan,

I would suggest you read "The Making of Billy Bishop" by Brereton Greenhous, The Durndurn Group, Toronto, 2002. Greenhous is a professional historian who tackles the controversial subject of Bishop's record. Though not without his critics, he does a very good job, in my opinion.

In his book, "Winged Warfare", Bishop claimed to have fought MvR on 30 April 1917. However, it's well recorded that MvR did not fly at all that day, having scored four victories the previous day and raised his tally to over 50. Bishop's combat report of the action of 30 April, written that day, made no mention of encountering red Albatrosse and certainly did not mention Richthofen. Major Scott's report of the same incident does not mention MvR or any red aircraft either. In a letter to his mother Margaret Bishop written that evening, Bishop said, "The CO and I went out and got mixed up with four really good Huns. We chased them away, but oh heavens, did they shoot well. Seven bullets went through my machine within six inches of me, and one within an inch...".

Six months later, though, when writing "Winged Warfare", Bishop left little doubt that his adversaries were MvR and "three of his best men". Lothar von R did fly that day, leading a massive sweep of some 20 fighters from Jastas 3,4,11 and 33 over the front. Lothar scored twice, but neither of his combats sound like an encounter with 60 Squadron Nieuports. So Bishop may very well have been shot up by some crackerjack German pilots, but it does not seem to have been MvR, nor Lothar.

Greg VanWyngarden

[Stephan]

Thanks much. will look for that material. Lots of incorrect data out there in book land. Which is unfortunate for the novice reader. I can understand some of the old books, but there are new ones with bad info as well, ( German knights of the air. written by 2 RAF officers), is one. I think that is the title. Bickers book on Richthofen is awful. Bishop was always my 2nd favorite ace. Don't know why his career has garnered so much scrutniy of late. P.S. did Greenhous agree with Bishops score of 72?