Photos, April 21,1918.

[Rod_Filan]

Paul,

I'm not that tricky.

What I'm eluding to is... Both the "Group photo" and the "Moritz photo" appear to be taken only a short time apart. The "Group" was taken before "Moritz" based on the length of the shadows and if you look closely at MvR and Loewenhardt they are wearing the exact same clothing in both photos. Loewenhardt looks as though he hasn't taken his hands out of his pockets all morning! Also, as Greg points out, 2 different Jasta pilots believe that both were taken 21 Apr.

So lets assume this is true (both taken the same morning but not necessarily 21 Apr)... and as Dan-San claims... the "Moritz" photo was taken in March at Awoingt. Is there anything in the "Group" shot that fingerprints it as being taken at Awoingt? Out-building layout in the background perhaps? Are all the pilots surrounding MvR confirmed to have been at Awoingt at this time... or conversely, anything that would rule it out as being Cappy the morning of 21 Apr?

Wenzl wrote that he took the last two shots of the old master in an "eye-blink" immediately after getting his equipment (camera). Again, If you compare the "Group" and the "Moritz"... the photo of Moritz was taken later ...meaning someone other than Wenzl took the "Group" photo. Could it have been Bodenschatz that took this photo?

I've read Dan-San's POV more than once and he doesn't waiver... sticking to the historical fact (Idflieg gospel) as he always does. I absolutely respect and admire that. On the other hand, Immo's argument is compelling and if you have ever been master of a dog you can read the interaction between MvR and Moritz that completely coincides with Wenzl's story. What we have here gentlemen, is a classic Mexican stand-off... and as long as that's the case, I'll keep passing the ammunition.

VBR
Rod

[pmirl]

In Rod's photo, there is a small pole in the middle of the group with a wire attached to it. Can someone tell me what this thing is?

Thanks,
Paul

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Greg and Immo:
Your argument about the simularity of dress of MvR and Löwenhardtin the photos is remarkable. However, explain the streaking patterns being identical on both machines in the two photographs. That is what is trouble.
To reproduce the same pattern on two sets of wings is impossible.
consider the problems of two sets identical. Question was there 2 sets of events when Möritz got a chock tied to his tail? In my copy of "Jagd in Flandern Himmel," I can't see the rope tied to the dog's tail, even using a powerful glass. The rope looks like it is laying on the ground behind MvR. It is not that clear. Don't misunderstand me, I don't doubt for a second, that the event did occur. I am stuck with two photos of the same aircraft in two different finishes, in two different photographs suppostedly on the same day????????
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Dan_San_Abbott]

PMirl:
If you look at picture 1 you will see a wire running across the photo above the heads of MvR and Löwenhardt. It is probably a telephone wire.
In picture the wire fastened to the yoke on the pole. again, I think this is a telephone wire that has not been connected. Ref. "Jagd in Flandern Himmel,"opposite page 91 , bottom photo, poles can be seen running through the center of the photo of the shops and tent area of Cappy air Field. Again, I think this a telephone line. In the right back ground is a electrical power pole.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Rod_Filan]

Dan-San,

My take on the "Moritz" photo is that MvR has just untied the rope from his tail and Moritz has jumped up onto Richthofen in affectionate appreciation. The picture I'm looking at clearly shows the rope running along the ground towards them. I can only see a short shadow behind MvR. IMHO it has been untied and dropped. No... thats not a short person joke btw B) http://204.83.160.230/archive/images3/MvR_Moritz.jpg

And you're right... the joke could have easily been played out twice. That's the problem with most practical jokes... they keep being replayed until everyone is bored with them. Or until somebody gets hurt

I'm convinced that both photos were taken the same day. Too many similarities to be coincidental. But is there a way way to prove the group shot was or wasn't at Cappy ? I doubt it. Wishful thinking on my part. I don't necessarily think the fingerprinting of streaked cammo is an exact science but if it is the same Fokker Dr1 at LeChelle on 26 March 1918, thats the clincher for me.

VBR
Rod

[retread]

An enjoyable and informative thread. I suppose it would help if the airfield could be positively I.D.ed through other photographs. Although even this could only disprove, as: the airfield in not Cappy so the date was not April 21st. If it was proven to be Cappy- still not absolute verification of the date.
By the way, do you get the impression Wolffram is walking a dog.

[Rod_Filan]

Using the rope from the wheel chock maybe

[retread]

For what its worth. According to "Jagd in Flanderns Himmel" , Wolfram von R. did not arrive at Jagdgeschwader 1 until 4th April, 1918. So the photo which includes him was no earlier than that.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
I am sure the group photo was taken at Cappy Airfield.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Rod_Filan]

Thank you Dan-San. I knew If I egged you on I could get an answer one way or another.

Interesting what you previously said about the mis-labeling of photo(s). However I wasn't sure if you were refering to Wenzl's or Bodenschatz's book or both. Curiously there are two letters at http://www.derrittmeister.com/gairsvc2.htm which are sent to Eberhard Strigel who has obviously refered to "Jagd in Flanderns Himmel" in previous correspondence. Whats interesting is Bodenschatz's admission of a mistake (not related to our topic) made by the editors.

Letter from Wolfram von Richthofen to Eberhard Strigel 04.10.34

"In Beantwortung Ihres Schreibens vom 1.10. teile ich Ihnen mit, dass ich nicht in der Lage bin, Ihnen ein gruppenbild des Geschwaders oder der Staffel 11 zu verschaffen.
Ltn Krefft ist nach dem Kreigs gestorben.
Bodenschatz ist in der Lage Ihnen Auskünfte über das Geschwader aus dem Jahre 1917 zu geben.
Er wird auch instande sein, Ihnen einen Namenszug von MvR zu verschaffen.
Weitere unbekannte Fliegerbücher kenne ich nicht".

"In answer of your letter of 1.10. I communicate to you that I am not able to provide for you a group picture of the Geschwader or Staffel 11.
Leutnant Krefft died after the War.
Vizekommodore Bodenschatz, z. Zt. Adjuntant to Minister Goering is able to give you information about the Geschwader from the year 1917.
He will also be capable of providing a signature of Manfred von Richthofen to you.
Other unknown flier books I know not of".

[Note: I'm not sure if the translation shouldn't be "Other books by fliers are unknown to me" in which case he knows of "Jagd in Flanderns Himmel" perhaps even read it, but is not aware of any other books written by Jasta pilots.]


Letter from Oberstleutnant Bodenschatz to Eberhard Strigel 25.02.35

"Ich freue mich, dass meine Tagebuchaufzeichnungen interessieren. Mein Bild mit Unterschrift liegt bei.
Das Gruppenbild Nr.6 bitte ich mir zu zusenden. Ich werde dann die Namen einschrieben.
Der irrtum mit Werner Voss geht auf Kosten der Redaktion".

"I am pleased that my diary recordings interest you. My picture with signature is attached.
The group picture Nr.6 I ask you to send to me. I will then inscribe the names.
The mistake with Werner Voss is at the expense of the editorship".

VBR
Rod