DISASTER FOR 4 NAVAL SQUADRON/No.204 SQN.

Ginger. · 2 February 2004, 05:01 AM

The following incident is touched on in Norman Frank's Camel Aces, can anyone provide a few more details?
On October 23rd 1918 a Flight from this Squadron was bounced and all five were shot down by Huns from MFJ 2 led by

Gotthard Sachsenberg.
Any details of the numbers and types of the enemy aircraft involed would be most appreciated.
I always thought the first few pages of 'The Blue Max' in which a Flight of Camels were destroyed was a bit far fetched. Looks like I was wrong again!

Mark_Miller · 2 February 2004, 09:49 AM

While we wait for Mike W to answer this question ....
I hope MFJ 2 was flying Dvs with that cool speckle camo scheme.

sounds like it would be a good subject for a rendering B)

Mark

Rick · 2 February 2004, 09:52 AM

What sort of details would you like? MFJ II claimed five, Zenses = 3, Merz = 1 and Scharon = 1, for the loss of Bargmann = KIA. 204 Sqn. lost Mahon, Nash, Orr, Bayles, and Sutcliffe - all KIA. I suspect that the MFJ II flight would normally be about six aircraft. R.

Barrett · 2 February 2004, 10:13 AM

I believe the Marine jastas had largely received D-VIIs by that late date; certainly GS & Co. did. His distinctive yellow & black machine would make a dandy CG illustration.

Mark_Miller · 2 February 2004, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barrett@Feb 2 2004, 01:13 PM
[b] I believe the Marine jastas had largely received D-VIIs by that late date; certainly GS & Co. did. His distinctive yellow & black machine would make a dandy CG illustration.

I was afraid of that

I need to model a DVII
one of these days
Mark

MikeW · 2 February 2004, 10:54 AM

Quote:

While we wait for Mike W to answer this question ....
I hope MFJ 2 was flying Dvs with that cool speckle camo scheme.

Too much faith in me Mark! Didn't know the answer to this one, my excuse being that it was RAF.

Are they any more details on the engagement, were the 204 guys novices? There have been parallels with most pilots in a flight failing to return, Naval 1 springs to mind, but usually when they came up against a German "hot shot" unit like J11.

Mike

Ginger. · 2 February 2004, 12:08 PM

Rick,
so this bloke

Gotthard Sachsenberg (am I right in presuming he was there and leading?) wasn't on the score sheet then?
The Osprey book gives the impression he was there and shot something down!
"They were bounced by fighters from MFJ 2. led by Gotthard Sachsenberg, who took his own score to 28 following the fight."
Had a quick look in the 'Aces' section but could not find this fellow, wonder if he made it to the end?

Rick · 2 February 2004, 12:38 PM

Ginger,

I must admit I only looked at MFJ II, sorry. Yes, Sachsenberg claimed a Camel that day also. He was the C.O. of the MJG, so he may very well have been there (although I tend to associate him with MFJ I). However, that makes 6 claims for 5 losses. Still, - - . R.

Ginger. · 2 February 2004, 12:47 PM

Plan B.
Got off my fat idle arse and did some research myself instead of expecting you chaps to do all the hard work.

This from 'Who Downed The Aces In WW1?':-

"On 23 October 204 Squadron lost five Camels and their pilots. They had taken off at 08.30 to fly a High OP after dropping bombs on front line targets. One pilot had suffered engine trouble on take-off and he eventually crash-landed at Furnes although he himself was unhurt. The patrol ran into twelve aircraft of MFJII, clouds and mist allowing the Germans to hit them before they knew what was happening. Two of the Camels were also seen to collide, but all were claimed by the Marine pilots, in fact they actually claimed seven, with Oberleutnant zur See Gotthard Sachsenburg, CO of MFJII, claiming two (victories 27 and 28), Vizeflugmeisters

Alexandre Zenses three (16 to 18),

Karl Scharon (seventh) and Leutnant Metz one each. The two aces of 204 lost were Captain T.W. Nash DFC (D9608) and Lieutenant O.J. Orr (D9613)."

Conclusions drawn from this are as follows. Odds of nearly three to one in their favour before the Huns dare join combat with Camels. Slightly at odds in the claims department, what? Keeping in mind the fabled and infallibubble 'German Records' we hear so oft quoted from.
Finally, and most spooky x-file fact...this account appears on page 204 of Norman Frank's book.

ps to Mike W, any time you need a hand with any research of a Hunnish character you only have to ask old bean...

MikeW · 2 February 2004, 01:39 PM

Major Ginger,

a masterly piece of research, but beware of putting all your eggs in one author's basket, even if it is Norman's basket!

I particularly like the claim for seven camels downed, shows that at times they were just as confused as our lot.

Are you saying (were they saying?) that the crash landing was claimed as a victory as well? Darstardly old boy.

See you for a pink gin after ops?

SCdr Mike