Hartney and MvR

[Rod_Filan]

Quick questions. (couldnt find much in a forum archive search)

Who is credited with downing Hartney and Jourdan on 14 Feb 1917. 1730 n. of Ypres? and/or Which D.II Jasta did the two No.20 Sqdn FE2b (Hartney and Taylor) mix it up with that day ?

Who were Richthofen's victims on the BE2d (No.2 Sqdn?) at or near Mazingarbe, 1645 the same afternoon. 1545 British Time?

Why does the Hartney page at this site credit MvR with bringing Hartney's final mission as a Canadian to an abrupt end ?


VBR
Rod

[retread]

From Under the Guns of the Red Baron von R. had two claims that day. The first BE2d #6231 of 2 Squadron Pilot Cyril Douglas Bennett (2nd Lt.) surviving although spending the duration as a POW. Observer Herbert Arthur Croft KIA. This was Richthofen's 20th confirmed.
The second claim is more controversial and several aircraft have been attributed over time. The authors selected BE2c #2543 of 2 Squadron as the most likely. This event took place at 16:45hrs German time behind British lines southwest of Mazingarbe (by von R.'s reckoning). It was or nearly was dusk with the wind blowing east-west, contrary to the prevailing direction. Richthofen saw the plane spiraling earthward and claimed he saw it smoking against the snow which covered the ground. In fact BE2c #2543 returned to base with pilot George Cyril Bailey (Capt) wounded in the knee and his aircraft badly damaged. Observer George William Betts returned uninjured only to be killed March 11th when his aircraft was shot down in flames.
With failing light and contrary winds the shoe was on the other foot. If the authors of "Under the Guns..." are correct this amounts to an OOC claim on the part of von Richthofen.

[Rick]

According to Trevor Henshaw in The Sky Their Battlefield the crew of Hartney and Jourdan were claimed by Uffz. Flemming of Jasta 18. R.

[Rod_Filan]

Thank you WB and Rick.

I find it interesting that MvR recieved credit for downing a BE2 with the only collaboration of the event being artillery battery(s) reporting seeing an Englishman crashing on the British side of the lines. Yet the "accepted" conclusion is that the a/c made it home... contrary to MvR's combat report and the witness testimony. Aye... the fog of war.

A definative victim, one that matches MvR's claim would go a long way in discrediting Hartney's story even though, by my estimation, he crashed over an hour later - 25 miles away.

VBR
Rod

[retread]

Both the authors of Under the Guns of the Red Baron (Franks, Giblin and McCrery) and Floyd Gibbons in "The Red Knight of Germany" interpet Richthofen as saying he saw the EA "touch" the ground southwest of Mazingarbe after falling in a spiral. Also that he saw a heavy cloud of smoke rising from the aircraft. Given the contrary wind and the failing light he decided he had seen enough and beat feet back home.
If this is an accurate interpetation of von R's choice of words (touch as opposed to crash) it suggests the aircraft may have successfully landed without further damage. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that an wounded pilot in a damaged aircraft , particularly when flying behind his own lines, would land asap in the first reasonable location. If this was Bailey and Hampton, perhaps after effecting temporary and satisfactory repairs to plane and pilot (Bailey was shot through the knee) and location allowing they decided to takeoff and fly back to their base. My only point being that Richthofen's description of events could have been 100% accurate and Bailey and co.'s next appearence still have been touching down at their own field.

[Rod_Filan]

Thanks for pointing out the word "touch". I'd have to agree with the translation if the word MvR used was Aufsetzen but I dont have the German text.

"About 4.45pm with five planes from my Staffel I attacked artillery flyers at a low altitude near Lens. Whilst my gentlemen attacked a second BE, I attacked the one flying nearest to me. After the first hundred shots the observer ceased firing. The plane began to smoke and twisted down in uncontrolled spirals to the right. As this was not a conclusive end for me, especially over the enemy lines. I continued shooting until the left part of the wing came off. As the wind was blowing at a velocity of 20 metres a second, I had drifted far over the enemy's side. Therefore I could observe that the enemy plane touched the ground southwest of Mazingarbe. I could see a heavy cloud of smoke in the snow arising from where the plane was lying. As it was foggy and already rather dark I have not got any witnesses, from the air or on the ground".


Yet to me this doesn't sound like a BE2c that would take off again soon.

Its cold, its near dark, half the left plane is near shot away, something is burning and Bailey is bleeding profusely from an agonizing bullet wound through his knee. Meanwhile Betts is in fine spirits after dodging one hundred bullets fired by an aerial marksman.
Joking aside, there is merit in this theory if the a/c and crew eventually arrived at their field. The fact Betts survived the Baron's onslaught could be a combination of a poor solution and very strong winds. Not to mention the horseshoe Betts carried up his... Ceasing to return fire could simply have been a jammed breach. Reading Bailey's combat report of his and Betts' action could possibly go a long way in unravelling this mystery.

VBR
Rod

[Frank_Olynyk]

My files show the gunner as 2ndLt George William Betts Hampton, which agrees with both Hobson and Henshaw. I further show that they did in fact submit a combat report, which can be found on microfilm at the PRO in Air 1/1216/204/5/2634/2 Sqdn frame 144 (although I am not sure that this has been placed in the microfilm room yet; it may be necessary to request the original in the usual manner, but the pages are foliated so it will be easy to find). The combat is noted at 1550 hours, at Loos, with a Halberstadt Scout, dark.

With regard to von Richthofen's combat report, as far as I know it only exists (today) in English, in the PRO. The original German report was never published; the only one, off hand, that was published is his 60th, in Jagd in Flanderns Himmel.

Frank.

[Rod_Filan]

Frank,

Thank you for the information! This is precicely why I would highly recommend this forum to anyone interested in WWI aviation !

Now I can only hope someone who's planning a trip to the PRO soon and stumbles across this thread will do us a little favor.

VBR
Rod

[retread]

In "Under the Guns.." it is mentioned that during the action the rear gun mount of the BE was hit and the weapon tumbled from the aircraft. The author(s) suggest that this may have been what von R. saw and interpetted it as a portion of the wing having been shot away.
Also, pardon my ignorance, but what is the PRO and where is it located?

[Rod_Filan]

Public Records Office. The Public Record Office (PRO) and the Historical Manuscripts Commission (HMC) are now joined as The National Archives.

http://www.pro.gov.uk/

Losing your gun over the side would certainly be a good reason for not shooting back