raoul lufbery

Dear Drew (and Walter, who's probably calling the cops by now reporting a stolen thread&#33,
This is one of the most important books in my library:

Wings of Honor: American Airmen in World War I, James J., Jr. Sloan, Schiffer, 1994

It is available, the last time I looked, from Amazon, for $45.00 (but it's a "special order", which means it might really be out-of-print); but, fear not:

It's also available from AEROPLANEbooks.com, for the same price, and Mrs. Byrd there would be more than happy to bind the book in plastic for you, no extra charge!

A week doesn't go by without me referring to it at least once or twice: it has the rosters of ALL the USAS units-- and plenty of photos! It has proven invaluable to me...

Presently, I'm researching the account of Rickenbacker's ghostwriter, in which details are given concerning the film that the 94th made in October, 1918: reference is made to a certain Captain Cooper. Well, I can't find him in the rosters of Sloan's book! And the only other Cooper that would come to mind, Merian C., who was a filmmaker after the war, was shot down on 26 Sept '18 (this was detailed in my thread "In-flight Fires", which you were gracious enough to read, Drew)...

Hmmm... in any event, while we all have limited budgets, this particular book is well worth the investment!

VBR,
Captain "King Kong" Lewis

[Barrett]

Woolley's "Echoes of Eagles" is straight-forward about those who showed the white feather. Some 95th pilots felt Gude had intentionally fired out and then split for home. He was not well regarded, and Woolley's father (among others) were convinced he'd "got lost" to sit out the rest of the war. They didn't seem to mind losing him, but were cranked about the SPAD!

As for Capt. DeRode, that sounds like Jean Marie Emile, CO of SPA.99 though I don't know where they were based in May '18. The unit only scored 5 victories, so there was no leading ace, and DeRode (with 7 vics from N.67 & 102) was KIA on June 4. I find no losses among French aces for May 19. Apparently EVR and/or Driggs gilding the lilly again.

[Lufbery]

Great stuff, Captain!

The cover features my favorite painting by James Dietz too. One that has never been made into a print. I've sent inquiries to Dietz asking if he'd make a print of that painting, but one of his employees responded in the negative.

Anyway, that's one more reason to buy the book!

I stopped in at Aeroplane Books when my wife and I were visiting Willimasburg last April. I was in heaven!

Regards,

hi all thanks for all the info. As the new gy of the hijacked thread I would like totake this opportunity to parade my ignortance before you and pick some nits. In the account of Lufbery's demise as posted it has him being shot down by an Albatros which is then shot down after this Albatros kills one more person and THEN some else shoots down a Rumpler to further avenge Lufbery so my question is why is a Rumpler credited with shooting down Lufbery if it was an Albatros (and if you say they are the same thing I will go hang my head in shame) walter spiro

Hey, Walt--

You really ARE a new guy!

The reason why the Albatros was mistaken for a Rumpler which was then thought to be an Albatros when it was, in reality, a Rumpler, but flown by a crew that usually flew an Albatros even though they were 'certified' to fly Rumplers, is: there was a great deal of misidentification at that time, under those stressful circumstances... and this tradition continued into WW2, and is observed even today!

We have, for example, Lothar von Richthofen (the Red Baron's brother) consistently misidentifying those aircraft types that he was flying and fighting against-- even to the point where he identifies the Sopwith Camels (rotary engines) that shot him down on his last wartime mission as Sopwith Dolphins (inline engines)!

Probably the most notorious misidentification of that time also concerns Lothar, for in claiming victory over Captain Albert Ball, RFC, flying an SE-5, Lothar states in his report that it was a Sopwith Triplane!

[Two-wings, three-wings... two-wings, three-wings... yeah, I can see why he reported what he did!]

For that matter, at that time (May, 1917), the SE-5 had been in action less than ten days, and it was (mis-)identified in German reports as a new fighter, possibly made by Sopwith...

Another example, and this one's not so funny--

Norman Prince, one of the founders of the Lafayette Escadrille, was killed in a flying accident-- his Nieuport's wingtip hit some (power? telephone?) wires while landing, crashed, and Prince later died of his injuries.

A contemporary account (a letter by Kiffen Rockwell, IIRC), says that it was all probably due to Prince's poor eyesight...

Christ!

VBR,
Captain Lewis

[Rick]

And I suppose to complete the picture, the crew who were resposible for the death of Lufbery were Uffz. Otto Kirschbaum and Ltn.d.R. Kurt Scheibe of RHBZ 20, who were taken POW that day at Flainval. Needless to say they DID NOT inform the Americans that they had just shot down an American aircraft. Oh, they were indeed in a Rumpler. R.

Dear Rick (and everyone else for that matter) I am not trying to beat a dead horse BUT simply put, what do you feel is the best primary source and why? Am I being foolish because seriously it bothers me a bit that none of the information seems to be consistent with any other account even to how much crew a type of airplane could take. Did he fall out before the plane caught fire because he forgot to fasten his seatbelt or did he jump because an explosive bullet took off his thumb and went into his gastank and he didn't want to burn to death. Rick your post starts off as if it was a continuation of another post, which version of events do you subscribe to and why. Also what is the source of the information that the 3 Rumpler flyers were captured AND I thought that Rumplers only had a pilot and one gunner, not a pilot and 2 gunners. Thank you all and I am not trying to be a pest just trying to put it all together into a cohsive whole and failing miserably walter spiro

[Rick]

Walter, I am a little confused over your questions, but that's OK, I confuse easily. First, I see nothing in my response and reporting of the captured German crew that suggests there were three of them. Kirschbaum + Scheibe = 2. Second, RHBZ 20 was a high flying, serial photographic unit, that employed Rumplers. Further they were later captured that day after downing Lufbery. There is no secret either as to what type aircraft they were flying or how many of them there were (2)!

Third, as to if Lufbery "jumped" or "fell out", I don't have a clue. It has always been reported that his aircraft caught fire, he spotted a stream below, and jumped to avoid the flames and hopefuly to fall into the stream. Obviously, he missed.

Sorry, that is the extent of my "knowledge". R.

As a P.S. The Rumpler crew would have been a pilot and an observer. No gunner, in the strictest sense.