The Real Fonck?

[Barrett]

Interesting to note that Fonck was known to the US Navy. His record (and something of his methods) appeared in a manual that I've seen from the late 20s or so--early in the days of carrier aviation. Wish I could find that volume again--one of many in the Shoulda Bought Dept.

[Gregvan]

Hi,

I agree with vb136; the title "Ace of Aces" was thought up by the people at Doubleday in the 1960's, long after Fonck's death. His own title for the book was 'Mes Combats'. Besides, he certainly was the Allied Ace of Aces, based on most criteria, just as Eddie Rickenbacker is called the American Ace of Aces (with more shaky criteria) and Francesco Baracca is the Italian ace of aces, etc. I imagine that's what the Doubleday people were getting at.

Fonck claimed a further 51 or 52 victories which were not credited under the strict French confirmation system, so he makes reference to (IIRC) 126 or 127 "victoires" in the book. Bill Bailey told me once that if the French system of confirmation had been as accepting of "out of controls" and 'moral victories', etc as the British (and indeed, the Americans) were, Fonck would have had his 126 victories, though don't quote me (or Bill) on that.

Greg

[cameldriver]

Originally posted by vb136@Apr 6 2004, 08:25 AM
[b]
However, following the death of Guynemer, neither Fonck nor any of the top French aces (Nungesser, Madon etc) received the same "worship" as Guynemer had been subjected to during his life-time or following his death.

I think that this was a phenomenom enjoyed by Albert Ball, in the RFC, as well. While a number of British pilots surpassed his record, I think he was the star turn to the men of the RFC and the British public. Although the Brits did not publicize their aces as did the Germans, French, etc., there is mention in the books about Ball referring to the many letters he received from adoring "fans". He personified the "offensive spirit" demanded by Trenchard.

[spacecrow]

Originally posted by Neil_E@Apr 6 2004, 07:15 AM
[b]
Maybe it was just as well that MVR didn't survive. I wonder would he have been as revered if he had been found sitting on the defendants' benches at Nuremburg in 1945?

dig those shades!

[Barrett]

Interesting to speculate upon MvR's postwar career. You can argue either way: his immense prestige woulda overshadowed Goering (who probably would NOT have been Kommodore JG.I) or HG's relationship with Hitler woulda proceeded regardless, thus outdoing MvR.

In either case, the available evidence indicates that MvR would not have been oriented toward a strategic bombing Luftwaffe. He said that if he were not a fighter guy he'd want to support the infantry, which means Schusta/Schlasta which means a tactical Luftwaffe largely along the lines it developed anyway.

However, it's possible that MvR, being more astute than HG (and more mission oriented), might have foreseen the need for a heavy bomber arm and supported same in the 30s. (Poor Udet, the stuka advocate, would've been caught in the middle.) Whether MvR might have formed an alliance with Milch et al must remain in the lap of the gods.

[Vin]

Originally posted by Gregvan@Apr 5 2004, 12:24 AM
[b]No one doubts Fonck's extraordinary abilities or his mature approach to aerial warfare. He practiced only moderate drinking, got plenty of sleep, practiced his shooting constantly and paced himself (unlike Guynemer).

That is how you become the top scoring Entente pilot and Ace of Aces, if you apply Neil's criteria, despite having commenced in the trenches, flying over 500 hours in unarmed caudron observation aircraft from 1915 to April 1917. Ability, preparation and self discipline.

A good, informative post, Greg

[Vin]

Originally posted by cameldriver@Apr 7 2004, 02:31 PM
[b]I think that this was a phenomenom enjoyed by Albert Ball, in the RFC, as well. While a number of British pilots surpassed his record, I think he was the star turn to the men of the RFC and the British public. Although the Brits did not publicize their aces as did the Germans, French, etc., there is mention in the books about Ball referring to the many letters he received from adoring "fans". He personified the "offensive spirit" demanded by Trenchard.

It depends upon what you mean by "British”. If you mean “English” then he was surpassed by two, Mannock and McCudden. If you mean “from the British Isles” then it was three. Mannock, McCudden and McElroy. If you mean “British Empire” then there were 9 ahead of him. Whichever you mean, I think you are right anyway.

[jado]

Lets not forget the Press. France and Germany made avaition heroes out of their successful flyers, (unlike Britain). Fonck's first victory with Spa 103 was 5 May 17, by which time Guynemer had 38 victories and was the sweetheart of the French military, press and the people. After Guynemers death, and with his increase in victories, I'm sure Fonck thought that his place in French combat aviation was never truely recognized. Ego, yes! justified, possibly!

VBR
Joe

So has anyone ever researched Fonk's victory list and found out how many of his credited victory's can be accounted for ?. Obviously I'm aware that the French had a much more stringent claim system than other Entente air forces , but I'm interested to see what cross referencing has turned up ? .
In " Over the Front " it only seems to give notes on which victories were shared . I haven't checked the losses in " The Jasta War Chronolgy " yet to see if German losses are attributed to Fonk ( when I get a spare moment ) , but someone must have checked out his list at some stage in time .
Thanks

Ooops , I meant Fonck ...now that really is being a dumb amateur ...apology's !