German aces times shot down

Stephan · 6 April 2004, 07:16 PM

I have read that

Josef Jacobs was shot up & shot down many times & Osterkamp was shot down by Ball & had a long fight with Gunymeyer From 17.000 ft down to treetop level, with Gunymeyer ending up on his tail. Also Udet had a good fight with Gunymeyer, with Gunymeyer letting him off the hook, (if that is inacurrate, please feel free to comment). Lothar was shot down at least twice, Voss once. Not sure about the other top aces, ( aces with 30 or more victories ). Manfred was hit through the petrol tanks once, hit from ground once, possibly twice,( it has been inacurrately reported over & over that he was hit by a Fee in 17 (, he was hit in back of head while "facing" said 2-seater 300 yrds away). He figured it was probably from the ground. It could have been from one of his pilots checking their guns before entering combat. The point is, It could be argued that he was never shot down by an enemy pilot. This would make he & Boelke the only top German aces to have this claim. Unless some other ace - Rumey, Von Scleich, Berthold, or the pilot with 53 victories, sorry forgot his name, that was killed in a mid air collision also can also be said to not have been shot down by enemy pilots. I have not studied these pilots enough to know. Can someone add some data to this topic?

Volker_Nemsch · 6 April 2004, 11:32 PM

You were most probably thinking about Erich Löwenhardt.

Volker_Nemsch · 6 April 2004, 11:49 PM

Among the pilots you forgot to mention is

Julius Buckler. As far as I know he was the only pilot to receive the Golden Wound Badge (a medal I would not be very keen to get).

He is credited with 36 victories, making him one of the "top 20 aces" of Germany.

Stephan · 7 April 2004, 02:31 AM

Yes Volker, Loewenhardt. Greetings from Utah.

Stephan · 7 April 2004, 02:35 AM

Did Buckler survive the war? doesn't sound as though he was never shot down by an enemy pilot. did he fly against the French or British?

joegertler · 7 April 2004, 06:22 AM

This thread reminded me of an interesting conversation with Otto Roosen, the WWI German aviator who was a special guest at the first Aerodrome '92 in Alabama. I was only attending as a vendor and had several long tables set up with WWI instruments wheels and replica machine guns etc. Roosen was surrounded by interviewers everywhere he walked and had a good time looking through all my WWI German items. But it wasn't until a fortunate lull after the dinner hour that I found myself alone with him, having coffee and he invited me back to his room to show me some historical documents he had brought along. I just happened to be in the right place, at the right time. We sat down and he rolled of anecdotes and stories of WWI aviation for two hours. Two things stand out from all the tales he told. He said he wished he had settled in the U.S. instead of Canada because in the U.S. he was treated kindly and with respect but had spent most of his life in Canada, being criticiized and resented for being "the enemy." I was most eager to hear his tales of exciting air combats. I mentioned that all the newspaper accounts he showed me, referred to him as a German "Ace." I asked him how many planes he had shot down. He repied that the truth was most flights were dull and uneventful and he was NOT an ace, but had been shot down five times. I commented that he must then be a "reverse" ace, and he smiled.
The man was in his nineties, and although I've seen a number of stories about him that implied his memory had been considerably dulled by age, I found it amazing when he recounted his family's geneology -step by step- with names, dates, towns etc all the way back to the mid 1400's, from memory. He later proved his accuracy by showing me a written history. But the first thing I always think of when I hear his name is. "Reverse Ace."

7 April 2004, 08:31 AM

Hi Stephan,

Eduard Ritter von Schleich was wounded three times during WWI. Once in the infantry, and the other two while piloting two-seaters. He was not wounded while flying single-seaters, where all his victories were scored. One point to make is that many pilots were 'wounded', and made it back safely to base, without being shot-down.

regards

Stephan · 7 April 2004, 12:13 PM

Thankyou winged warrior. That would make 3 then. single seat aces,( over 30), that had not been shot down while piloting their single seat aircraft. Did Von Schleich fly in the 1919 communist uprising? I know Osterkamp did. And I suppose Austro hungarian aces can be included here. Rumey was Austro Hungarian as I recall.

Stephan · 7 April 2004, 12:21 PM

Joegertler. your post about Roosen reminded me of another off topic question. Heinz bar was shot down 19 times. Which begs the question; who holds the record for being shot down in either ww1 or 2? I don't want to stray off the original topic too much, but this is also an interesting question.

7 April 2004, 01:34 PM

Hi again,

Von Schleich was a member of the Polizei-Fliegerstaffel Bayern (Bavarian state police - aviation section). This organization was part of the Reichswehr, which absorbed the independant Freikorps units when government (Weimar Republic) authority was restored. Actually, The Polizei-Fliegerstaffeln (of different regions) was called to suppress uprisings by militant organizations trying to over throw the government. On at least one occassion they helped mitigate a coup by former Freikorps leaders in March 1920!

regards