Seaplane aces?

[Jos]

Hello Gunnar,

Here's a picture of Calvello and Pierozzi.

Calvello had 3 confirmed victories.

1. 22-4-1918 Sqn 260 Macchi 5 7103 16.00 hrs Place Fasana

Victim R1 Stefan Bauer & Alfred Edler von Herbetz

2. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 M.5 Place Trieste

Victim A91 Josef Niedermayer POW

3. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 M.5 Place Trieste

Victim A78 Franz Boros POW




Orazio Pierozzi had 6 confirmed victories.

1. 7-6-1917 Sqn 255 F.B.A. 14

[Jos]

Hello Gunnar,

Here's a picture of Calvello and Pierozzi.

Calvello had 3 confirmed victories.

1. 22-4-1918 Sqn 260 Macchi 5 7103 16.00 hrs Place Fasana

Victim R1 Stefan Bauer & Alfred Edler von Herbetz

2. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 M.5 Place Trieste

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A91 Josef Niedermayer POW

3. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 M.5 Place Trieste

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A78 Franz Boros POW




Orazio Pierozzi had 6 confirmed victories.

1. 7-6-1917 Sqn 255 F.B.A. 14 Place Lower Adriatic

Victim K154 Alois Poljanec KIA
Josef Prauer KIA

2. 1-5-1918 Sqn 261 Macchi 5 7256 Place Trieste

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A67 Josef Niedermayer Unh.
(Yes, the same Niedermayer as above)

3. 14-5-1918 Sqn 261 M. 5 7256 Place Pola

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A70 Josef Gindl Unh.

4. 14-5-1918 Sqn 261 M. 5 7256 Place Pola

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A85 Franz Pichl KIA

5. 14-5-1918 Sqn 261 M.5 7256 Place Pola

Victim --------------------

- 22-5 1918 Sqn 261 M.5 7256 Place Rovigno

Victim Phönix D.1 A 115 Stephan Wolleman WIA

6. 2-7-1918 Sqn 260 M.5 7256

[Jos]

Hello Gunnar,


Calvello had 3 confirmed victories.

1. 22-4-1918 Sqn 260 Macchi 5 7103 16.00 hrs Place Fasana

Victim R1 Stefan Bauer & Alfred Edler von Herbetz

2. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 M.5 Place Trieste

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A91 Josef Niedermayer POW

3. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 M.5 Place Trieste

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A78 Franz Boros POW




Orazio Pierozzi had 6 confirmed victories.

1. 7-6-1917 Sqn 255 F.B.A. 14 Place Lower Adriatic

Victim Bomber K154 Alois Poljanec KIA
Josef Prauer KIA

2. 1-5-1918 Sqn 261 Macchi 5 7256 Place Trieste

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A67 Josef Niedermayer Unh.
(Yes, the same Niedermayer as above)

3. 14-5-1918 Sqn 261 M. 5 7256 Place Pola

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A70 Josef Gindl Unh.

4. 14-5-1918 Sqn 261 M. 5 7256 Place Pola

Victim Hansa Brandenburg A85 Franz Pichl KIA

5. 14-5-1918 Sqn 261 M.5 7256 Place Pola

Victim --------------------

- 22-5 1918 Sqn 261 M.5 7256 Place Rovigno

Victim Phönix D.1 A 115 Stephan Wolleman WIA
(damaged)

6. 2-7-1918 Sqn 260 M.5 7256 Place Revedoli

Victim Bomber K394 Vinzenz Guglielmi POW
Emiel Modler POW
Niedoba POW


Here's a picture of Calvello and Pierozzi.


L to R.

STV Ivo Ravazzoni, STV Umberto Calvello, commander Capitano di corvetta Roberti di Castelvero, TV Orazio Pierozzi, ?


Greetings,


Jos

[Jos]

Sorry,

I don't know how this could happen. I posted (without knowing) 2 times while I hadn't finish the reply.


Jos

[Reinout]

Hi Gunnar,

Well, thank you for sharing that - it did come as a surprise to me! Were the Marine documents always available at Freiburg or were they made available more recently? I always thought the Marine aviation units were less well documented since their documentation was lost, but now I wonder: with all those Marine documents in Freiburg, shouldn't the Marine air units be the best documented?

I find it strange that such dyed-through-the-wool researchers missed an entire archive. That's why I'm thinking the Marine documents weren't so accessible until recently, but undoubtedly you can tell me more about that.

So you're saying the victories awarded to See I (is that Seeflugstation I or something?) were mistakenly credited to FC; how come? Please note that there were some German lists that credited FC with a score ranging from 21 to 27! Apparently, his score was difficult to compile as early as the interbellum.

Christiansen victories has been discussed a couple of times earlier here on the Forum...among the threads are "Who really shot down C 27" etc etc

Yes, I looked for this in a search but found nothing - except this current thread! If you have the link more readily available then please be so kind.

I can prove(and anyone else who reads some documents in Freiburg) that these authors are wrong in their assumptions and theories about Christiansen victories..

This is good news actually, I'd like to see that proof. I'm interested in FC for more than one reason. His WWI record is outstanding no matter how many victories he has but I'm also interested in this man because he was the commanding officer in the Netherlands under the nazi occupation in the Second World War. In fact, I once met a man whose death sentence was ratified by FC (it was later turned over - obviously! ) but who held no grudge against Christiansen.

What has become obvious to me some time ago is that FC should not be listed under the fighter pilot recipients but under a category of his own. He's more comparable to Franz Walz than any PlM fighter pilot.

*More or less the complete German Marine archive survived the destruction of WW2 as this material was moved to the castle Tambach...

I knew the Kriegsmarine documents were pretty much saved from destruction but did not know the WWI archives to have been saved along with them. Years ago I entertained the notion of going to the Freiburg Kriegsarchiv but dispelled it due to low finances and other resources. Maybe in a few years time.

Could you list the 5 victories that Marine document gives for FC?

Thank you and kind regards,

Reinout

[Jos]

Hello,


Fredrico Carlo Martinengo had 5 confirmed victories.


1. 16-10-1916 Sqn FBA 408 Place Rovigno

2. 23-10-1916 Sqn LC 252 Place Caorle

Victim L. 138 Viranyi POW & E.F. Hoch POW

3. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 Place Gulf of Trieste

(with Calvello)

Victim A91 Josef Niedermayer POW

4. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 Place Gulf of Trieste

(with Calvello)

Victim A78 Franz Boros POW

5. 4-5-1918 Sqn 260 Place Gulf of Trieste

(with Calvello, allthough Calvello in his logbook
claimed 2 victories, Ago 91 and Ago VI ?????)

Italians believed the A marking Austrian seaplane fighters,
standing for Abwehr, defense, meant Ago, an easy name
to remember, and appropiate too, meaning needle in
Italian.

Victim A82 Gottfried von Banfield Unh. FTL



Greetings,

Jos

Picture shows Martinengo in front of A91 captured on 4 May 1918.

[Soderbaum]

Hi again Reinout

Regarding the Marine archive, I would say that it was open for "authorized" researchers already before WW2. During WW2 it was probably more or less closed.
It was American troops who first arrived to the castle Tambach after the War. They worked hard(in three shift) for nearly three Years after the War trying to microfilm all doucuments....but they were never able to finish their job...
This material(on microfilm) has been open for public research for over 50 Years I think, I actually have some of it since about 20 Years ago...

Regarding the "original" material I think that also this material has been free since mid 1950s, first at Koblenz then later in Freiburg...

A problem is that you indicate, has all material been open for public research...?
Those "archivarians" who works in the archive are in my meaning rather secret people, so all original material has probably not been open the whole time for public research....but the latest 20 Years it has probably been available for all....this has also led to that some material has been stolen..

I HATE THOSE WHO STEEL such documents...

I would say that the Marine Flying units are these which are best documented from the War....I have more or less rather complete unit rosters from many units..
The problem is mostly in the later Days of the War, with the revolution in the Marine. But this material have been lost from the beginning..

With See 1 (which is a rather common abrivation) I mean Seeflugstation Flandern I which was based at Seebrügge. This was also the "last" official name of the unit

Regarding these German sources which credits Christiansen with 21 or 27 victories...I would like to see them..!!
There exist two(or maybe three) original documents from the War that give such numbers BUT they refer to that See I under the leadership of Christiansen scored such numbers..
And that is a completely another thing...

I can understand that British speaken authors/researchers could make such mistakes (translation errors etc) but I have more difficulties to understand that German researchers has made the same mistakes..!

You ought to find the Thread about C27 with searching for Christiansen, however I think the exact meaning of the thread should be "who really shot down the British Airship C27"

I can recommend a visit to Freiburg, and You can live nearby the archive for a reasonable sum of money. They have huge amount of material regarding See 1, which would take weeks to read through...
But for much of the confirmation material, You must read documents on higher levels. It was actually the Marineflugchef who confirmed or not the claims made by Marine flyers....


Gunnar

[Soderbaum]

Hi Jos

and thanks for all information...

It seems that Martinengo shared his 2nd victory on 23 Oct 1916 with the French pilot Lt Garros from Esc N 92.....does anyone have Garros first name..?

I got a bit confused Martinengos fifth victory on 4 May 1918, did he really scored three victories this day..?

And very nice photos, indeed..


Gunnar

[duedicoppe]

Dear friends,
the Official List of the Italian Navy states 7 victories for Pierozzi. The victory of May, 22, 1918 is confirmed.
"duedicoppe" is my nickname here. i have the picture of an Italian Nieuport with this writings: "Asso? Macché! Due di Coppe!". "Asso" is the Italian word for Ace and we can roughly translate the sentence as "Straight Flush? No, just a pair!"
Paolo, duedicoppe, obviously!

[Jos]

Hello Gunnar,

The Franch pilot was Paul Xavier Garros, Escadrille 392.

Martinengo was credited with 5 victories, allthough it is not possible to identify all of them.

To be precise, the last 3 victories were shared with STV Umberto Calvello, 2 Capo Guido Janello, 2 Capo Andrea Rivieri & Marinaio Giuseppe Pagliacci.

Nr. 1 Martinengo was observer. Pilot was 2 Capo Pietro Valdimiro.
Nr. 2 M. scored with 2 Capo Danielle Minciotti & Paul Xavier Garros.


The picture below shows Calvello & Rivieri, who shared with him all his victories. Behind them is the fighter flying boat A 91, shot down and captured on 4 May 1918. See also the picture of Martinengo standing in front of the same machine.


Greetings,


Jos