MvR's death

About 600 yards, I should think.

That's what the gun expert said....I was able to find the quuote.

This interview with Norman Franks (NF) was carried out by the television production company 3BM for the Channel 4 programme Dogfight: The mystery of the Red Baron. Norman Franks is a military aviation historian with nearly 50 books to his name, among them massive studies of World War I fighter aces: Above the Trenches, Over the Front and Above the Lines. He was one of the historical consultants on Dogfight.

And here's the quote...

We know from doctors' reports that the bullet that killed von Richthofen had presumably hit his spine, had been deflected forward and had come out of the left-hand side of his body. It would have either ripped out the aorta or torn the back of the heart. But it had not had sufficient speed to penetrate through his clothing, and it hadn't fragmented. It was later found inside the Red Baron's clothing.

We know all that because one of the medics who had cleaned up the body for the doctors had found the bullet when he was taking off von Richthofen's uniform. He took it home as a souvenir and kept it in a kitchen drawer for many years. When he died, his wife threw it out – which is unfortunate, but a bullet is a bullet.

So we asked our gun expert, 'What do we need to look for?'

He said, 'You need to have a machine-gun 600 yards away firing at von Richthofen's right-hand side.'

'Why 600 yards?'

Because, at that range, the bullet will remain virtually intact. It will not fragment. Have you got somebody who knows what they're doing, 600 yards away, and he's firing at von Richthofen's right side?'

'Yes.'

'There's your man.'

Now we're not saying that Sergeant Popkin, who was that man, actually fired the shot. But we haven't found anybody else who comes close to firing from that distance and location and who saw that the aircraft was hit and another person saw that it was hit.


So....If it's true that the bullet was indeed found, it would have had to be a long range, as you correctly stated.

A long range, but MvR had been hit from a considerable distance further than that when he was shot in the head.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Lepetitrouge:
I watched that program and found it lacking in known facts and their findings flawed. My impression was a bunch of amateurs playing scientists.
Their is nothing like TV /movies to influence the viewer. You can engineer any result you may want with enough tries. Their findings were never considered plausible in post WWI studies by a number of "experts. Some more reasonable than others, I was unimpressed.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[pmirl]

You can engineer any result you may want with enough tries.

How true, Dan-San! As someone else in this thread stated, only God knows who fired the shot. With all of the people shooting at him, and with all of the people claiming that they ended his life, we will never really know for sure. This is one of those things that when you get to heaven, you'll go, "Hey, by the way...."


Paul

[Barrett]

"A long range, but MvR had been hit from a considerable distance further than that when he was shot in the head. "

If the distance during the FE-2 episode is known, I'd be interested to hear it. But remember that there's compelling evidence MvR was struck by his wingman's bullet--which woulda been fairly close!

[retread]

Barrett,
Just to clear up any misunderstandings that could result, I know you are speaking of von R's head wound when you say there is "compelling" evidence he was hit by his wingman.
I have never heard of this and would be interested in knowing what the evidence is- or for that matter who was his wingman.

[Gregvan]

Hi Weldboy,

Well, I'm not sure the evidence is compelling, but it's enough to ponder. Richthofen and his Jasta were heading toward the FE's of No. 20 Sqn, and the FE he was pursuing "went into a nosedive and maneuvered to take up the fight with me". Wolff flew beneath him, and he saw from the position of the cocking handle of his machine gun that he was ready to fire; then the FE observer (apparently Woodbridge) began firing at him from a distance of over 300 meters. Richthofen was not worried about being hit at such a ridiculous distance, and then he felt the hammer blow which "affected my optic nerve and I was completely blinded."

The evidence, photographic and otherwise, indicates that MvR's wound was on the backback of his head. To my knowledge, A E Ferko was the first one to really make a point of this. "How could Richthofen have been hit on the rear side of his head, behind the left ear, while he was far out of range and approaching his intended victim from the front? The two machines were heading towards each other! Neither side mentioned any AA fire so it is improbable a piece of shrapnel hit the Rittmeister. Richthofen was rendered temporarily blind by a blow the the head wherein lies the brain's primary visual cortex, also known as the V.1...One is left with the inescapable conclusion that it could only have come from a member of Richthofen's own Staffel, either carelessly or accidentally clearing his guns for action, for neither side had developed bullets that shot around corners.."

That's dear old Ed Ferko's own characteristic take on the matter. For what it's worth, Mama Richthofen's book (translated by Sue Fischer) concurs, on page 137: "Manfred was wounded on the back of the head. The skull bone was smashed, a five-mark sized piece was laid bare."

So there you go. Yet more MvR controversy. We will never know which member of the Staffel it might have been - probably not Wolff; Brauneck and Niederhoff came down to shepherd their wounded commander as he landed. I don't know of any record of who else was flying in the group that day.

Greg VanWyngarden

That's a possibility; Now I remember reading that.

So then, if that's true, he wouldn't have been wounded a good distance longer than 600 yards. Oops!

[stephen]

Greg, I think the case for Woodbridge revolves around the possibility that as the two aircraft approached, Woodbridge would have followed MvR "past" the FE and exposed Manfred's Albatros from the side and slightly to the rear.

I realize that this would entail Woodbridge switching quickly to the secondary Lewis gun and shooting while the FE banking around toward MvR, and is also heavily dependent on the impact taking place after MvR had passed the Fee... but nevertheless, the possibility remains and so goes the theory. Woodbridge's combat report might clear things up a bit. I haven't seen it.

Cpt D C Cunnel was Woodbridge's pilot on this occasion, but the pilot could only man the forward firing gun... that means he could not have delivered the near-fatal shot because the angle was quite impossible (with MvR making a frontal approach). There were also five other Fee's in the air at the time in what became a long, running battle (the Fee's were circling as they decended toward British lines). So it was either a VERY alert Woodbridge, one of MvR's own wingmen, or sheer blind luck from a random shot by another Fee. Either way, Manfred just seemed to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Gregvan]

Hi Stephen,

Once again we've taken this thread a bit far afield. You may certainly be right, but I'm not sure Richthofen's or Woodbridge's account supports your case. Of course, the two accounts differ somewhat, and all I have seen is Woodbridge's account as colorfully related by Gibbons. Here's MvR's account (translated by Kilduff):
"After quite a while I had the rearmost (aircraft) so close to me (that I could) consider all the possible ways to attack him. Wolff flew beneath me. I recognized by the sound of the German machine-gun that he was already engaged in combat. Then my opponent went into a dive and took up the fight with me. But, in spite of everything, it was from such a great distance that one could not yet call it a true aerial combat. I had not yet cocked (my machine-gun), as there was still so much time until I got into combat with my opponent.Then I watched as the observer, in great excitement, shot at me. I calmly let him shoot, for even the best sharpshooter's marksmanship could not help at a distance of 300 meters. One just does not hit! Then he turned completely toward me and I hoped to get behind in the next turn and burn his hide. Suddenly I received a blow to my head! I was hit! For a moment I was completely paralyzed...I was completely blinded. The machine dived down."

[Gregvan]

Hi Again,

I don't know if Woodbridge or Cunnell's combat reports exist, but they've never been quoted in the available literature, which is extensive. What I have seen is Woodbridge's account as related to Floyd Gibbons, as Gibbons told it in "The Red Knight of Germany". Gibbons interviewed Woodbridge about 1927 or so:
"We spotted a formation of 8 speedy German planes. They wheeled around to the west of us and got between us and our own lines...As soon as they were behind us, we turned around and started to engage them...Two of them came at us head on, and I think the first one was Richthofen...I opened fire with the front Lewis, and so did Cunnell with the side gun. Cunnell held the F.E. to her course, and so did the pilot of the all-red (sic) scout. Gad, with our combined speeds, we must have been approaching each other at somewhere around 250 mph.
"Thank God, my Lewis didn't jam. I kept a steady stream of lead pouring into the nose of that machine. He was firing also. I could see my tracers splashing along the barrels of his Spandaus and I knew the pilot was sitting right behind them. His lead came whistling past my head and ripping holes in the bathtub.
"Then something happened. We could hardly have been twenty yards apart when the Albatros pointed her nose down suddenly. Zip, and she passed under us. Cunnell banked and turned. We saw the all-red (sic) plane slip into a spin. It turned over and round and round....He was completely out of control."

I should note that Gibbons says Woodbridge had "just finished several hours' perusal and comparison of the Richthofen account with the reports found at the British Air Ministry which he and Cunnell had written immediately after the fight and also a letter which he had written to his mother the same day". Then Gibbons' "quotes" Woodbridge at length, as the latter drank quite a bit! I wish we could see those original reports and the letter.

It was a long and wide-ranging fight involving many aircraft, and Woodbridge and Cunnell were credited with four out of control victories, and Lt C R Richards and 2/Lt A E Wear were credited with one. In FE2 A6419, observer Lt S F Trotter is supposed to have "hit an Albatros", according to "Under the Guns of the Red Baron."

Indeed, after Gibbons first published his version of the affair in "Liberty Magazine" (which preceded "The Red Knight of Germany" book, and which I haven't seen), Woodbridge wrote to him and said, "Now all this is very nice but if I remember at the time of our interview, we didn't quite decide whether it was actually I who fired the shot which wounded the German ace...You see, there must have been more than one Hun shot down out of control in that fight and I fail to see why I should be given the credit unless you have some confirmation from the other side."

It sounds like Gibbons had embellished Woodbridge's story quite a bit. Like Stephen, I would like to see the original combat reports.

Greg