Bishop. New evidence

Originally Posted by alex_revell

Andrew,
In an old Cross and Cockade GB Vol 7 no.1 (1976) article on Little, Douglass Whetton said that on 12th July 1917 Little teamed up with Bishop and they joined in a fight between some Nieuports and Albatri. Little saw Bishop shoot one down which crashed at Vitry. They then both attacked another Albatros and the pilot waved a white handkerchief or something so they stopped firing. But the German pilot then turned east so Little opened fire and thought he had wounded the pilot. Little then attacked another Albatros which went down ooc and was confirmed by Bishop and the other pilots in the fight. Whetton then says. Quote: 'Bishop's own account of this fight was terse indeed and Little was under the impression that Bishop begrudged him his victory. Whether this was correct or not, Little treated the Canadian with some reserve after this.' EOQ
Have you any more details about this or can you enlarge upon it in any way.

G'day Alex,

I have had a copy of Whetton's article for years and have only just read it after reading your post. I now know where the thief TBA Graves stole his article on Little from.

I have been frustrated by this citar and remarks such as you have quoted above for a few years. I corresponded with Little's relatives last year regarding the matter but they have no knowledge of the incident. There appears to be nothing in Little's records that show his feeling towards Bishop nor is there any hint of a conserted push by RFC HQ to force him to sign the citar of July 12, 1917.

There is a sealed file at the AWM in Little's collection that can only be viewed by AWM staff or if given permission by Little's family. At this stage I have had no access to this file, perhaps it holds the key to this incident.

I am sorry not to be able to throw any more light on the subject

Regards,

Andrew

Originally Posted by MikeW

Little’s grammar and spelling both get a bit ragged at times, but neither detract from his report of the encounter

12/7/17 12.35pm N6378 10000ft


While on Special Mission I observed a Nieuport west of Douai, we met and then went east together when I observed a formation of Nieuports fighting with some Albatros scouts. I joined in the fight.

During the fight I saw Capt. Bishop RFC shoot down an EA which crashed near Vitry.

Capt Bishop and myself then attacked another ea and during the fight the German pilot wave a white handkerchief or something so I stopped firing at it but seeing that he turned east I opened fire on him, I think he was wounded, he dive down and went away very low.

Later I attacked another ea which got into a spin and went down out of control. I could not watch him for long as I was then attacking and being attacked by other ea. Capt Bishop and others who took part in the engagement state that he was undoubtedly OOC.

G'day Mike,

It is the same as Little's citar except for the location he observed the Nieuport, Little's citar has it at ROUEX.

Regards,

Andrew.

Originally Posted by Billy_Bishop

I agree it does seem odd that BB would go the extra mile for getting confirmations when he had witnesses. But it does make you think about some things, doesn't it.

G'day Al,

I doubt very much that it was BB going the extra mile to verify this citar, I believe it was RFC HQ.

Regards,

Andrew.

[Billy_Bishop]

Originally Posted by Andrew_Smith

G'day Al,

I doubt very much that it was BB going the extra mile to verify this citar, I believe it was RFC HQ.

Regards,

Andrew.

From what I recall of the action, and what happened afterwards, Little supposedly landed at Filescamp, and I believe it was there that BB asked him to sign the CITAR, not RFC HQ.

[ehrenpries]

Bishop said it
I believe it
That settles it !

"More mulled wine nurse please bedore dawn patrol"

Ehrenpries.

Originally Posted by Billy_Bishop

From what I recall of the action, and what happened afterwards, Little supposedly landed at Filescamp, and I believe it was there that BB asked him to sign the CITAR, not RFC HQ.

G'day Al,

From what I have read from Little's side, I doubt very much that a citar was signed at Filescamp. I have read an account where this citar was referred back to 60 Sqn from 13th wing and then to Naval 8 for Little to sign their version, which is the copy of the citar I have in my collection (I believe this was signed on the 23rd and back dated.)

I wrote again yesterday to Little's family to gain permission to access the file at the AWM, I hope that will clear this matter up once and for all.

On your point though regardless if it was BB or RFC HQ, a lot of effort and time was put into confirming this citar.

Regards,

Andrew.

Originally Posted by ehrenpries

Bishop said it
I believe it
That settles it !

"More mulled wine nurse please bedore dawn patrol"

Ehrenpries.

I earlier stated that I believe BB got this one, but I also believe that the brass hats were too keen to verify this claim. It is as if it was to be the holy grail to show all and sundry that all of BB's claims were fair dinkum.

Regards,

Andrew.

[Billy_Bishop]

I have to wait until I get some of my books dug out of the moving boxes before I can comment further on Little and BB.

However, on another note, I received an email from a Maj. Buck, CD, who related the following information to me regarding BB's 1914-15 Star.

Actually - according to "Canadian Orders Decorations and Medals" by Surgeon Commander F.J. Blatherwick, "Canada considered 'overseas' to be service beyond the three mile limit..." Therefore, anybody who saw service outside of Canada between 4 August 1914 and 31 December 1915 is entitled. This includes a number of small RCN vessels that never left sight of Canada! According to my research Bishop was at sea enroute to Britain by 9 June 1915. In July 1915 he applied for transfer to the RFC and by 1 Jan 1916 he was at his aerodrome in France.

It could therefore be argued that although the official records to not show him being awarded the medal - he was almost certainly entitled to it under the Canadian definition, from the moment his ship left Canadian territorial waters in June 1915. Even under the more strict British definition - as long as he arrived in France before midnight 31 December 1915 - which he must almost certainly have done to be ready to commence flying operations 1 Jan 1916 - he was entitled to it. I know his medals which I have seen on display at the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa (and very impressive they are), have the 1914-15 Star - and I doubt the Museum would make a mistake like that.

It appears that Mr. Greenhous made a faux pas.

[Richard_Schrader]

Alex;
Thank you for a very interesting thread. As most of you know I have never believed Billy Bishop, René Fonck and Taffy Jones. This new information just adds to my distrust of anything the three of them claimed.

[Billy_Bishop]

Originally Posted by Richard_Schrader

Alex;
Thank you for a very interesting thread. As most of you know I have never believed Billy Bishop, René Fonck and Taffy Jones. This new information just adds to my distrust of anything the three of them claimed.

So if I had an anonymous source who claimed to have seen the attack of 2 June, 1917, that would be believed too?

I didn't think so.

[Richard_Schrader]

Originally Posted by Billy_Bishop

So if I had an anonymous source who claimed to have seen the attack of 2 June, 1917, that would be believed too?

I didn't think so.

Al;
Yes, coming from you I would. The same goes for Alex, because I believe that both of you are men of honor and truth.

[Vigilant]

I feel you may have blown your 'independent' credentials, Al, by posting under the name Billy Bishop!

A most interesting thread - I do hope Alex will be able to get some of these 'family' memoirs published eventually.

Vig.